The Last Testament (Vol 3) ~ 11

event type	interview
date & time	1 Oct 1985 pm
location	Sanai Grove, Rajneeshpuram
language	English
audio	Available, duration 1h 58min. Quality: good.
online audio	free download from OshoWorld
video	Available, duration 2h 1min. Quality: good.
online video
see also	timeline : Osho Timeline 1985 first edition : The Last Testament (Vol 3) (1994 on CD-ROM) other editions, translations and links
online text	find the PDF of this discourse
shorttitle	LAST311

notes: Published in book form in The Man of Truth, ch.13 (in 2008).

synopsis: Interview. Announcements by Sw Dhyan John : Peter Weisbach from Questline Radio in Vancouver (quetions 1-88); Mike Zielenzinger from Knight Ridder newspapers (q.89-172).; CD-ROM on this chapter: Interview with Peter Weissbach, CJOR Radio, Vancouver; and Mike Zielenzinger, Knight Ridder, Newspapers.; The Man of Truth, ch.13 on this chapter: Peter Weissbach, CJOR Radio, Vancouver, Canada; and Mike Zielenzinger, Knight Ridder Newspapers, United States.

Question 1 : Peter Weissbach, CJOR Radio, Vancouver, Canada

You've made recent statements that you're prepared to sell back Antelope, or the city of Rajneesh, property to the former residents of Antelope. Now, is that an indication that you're now prepared to compromise with your neighbors in order to seek a reconciliation?

Question 2

You're not called Rajneeshees any more?

Question 3

What term should I use?

Question 4

Okay. Your friends will be selling their interests in the city of Rajneesh, formerly Antelope, Oregon.

Question 5

And, now Margaret Hill -- who is the former mayor of Antelope, said to prove your sincerity you should instruct the Rajneesh city council to repeal the city's charter this year. Do you intend to do that?

Question 6

You've always maintained that you're simply a guest here in Rajneeshpuram.

Question 7

Now, since the weekend of September 14th, 15th, is that still the case now?

Question 8

Are you at all involved administratively or politically at Rajneeshpuram?

Question 9

But some of the statements that you've made during the past two weeks would indicate that you were involved during the time Sheela was here. You've indicated that Sheela consulted you about the plans for the share-a-home program, and you told her it was perfectly good to start the program if money was available. Is that an accurate quote?

Question 10

You've pledged to decentralize the power in the movement's corporate structure, and that you've said, quote: "It will take a few days, but I will make it diffused." And you've also said, quote: "There will be several corporations equal, and several presidents of equal status." You must have the power then to say, "Go do this."

Question 11

So you're there to give advice to your heads of the corporations...

Question 12

But it's advice, it's not a direct order.

Question 13

It's been said that your new corporate leaders have been referred to by some sannyasins as the "Beverly Hills money crowd." And concern has been expressed that once again the power has passed to a close-knit elite group of favorites. Would you respond to that, please?

Question 14

There must be examples of people that do come from the similar background of Sheela -- if that's what you're referring to -- that still have compassion for the poor and don't abuse their power.

Question 15

These allegations against Sheela and the gang... Now, they may have ordered these crimes to be committed, but there must have been a number of people that were involved in actually placing the bugs and the wiretaps, et cetera.

Question 16

A secondary echelon. Has any action been taken against those people?

Question 17

So those twenty people are the only ones that were involved in this massive plot of wiretapping and...

Question 18

Who was that?

Question 19

Is she the one that told you of the murder plots?

Question 20

Have you been interviewed yet, Bhagwan, by the FBI or the Oregon state police?

Question 21

Isn't that one of your conditions that the press be present during that interview?

Question 22

There's a rumor around that the National guard is being mobilized in Madras.

Question 23

How do you know that?

Question 24

There's also rumor that you're to be arrested tomorrow.

Question 25

How would you handle that? Would you....

Question 26

Why would you enjoy it?

Question 27

You have now urged the residents here to take responsibility for the future. It's up to them to guard against similar events. Do you share any of the responsibility for what has happened here?

Question 28

One of your sannyasins in a letter to the Rajneesh Times said, and I quote: "He should have known. He should have seen what a monster she was. He should have protected us. He should have done something" -- referring to you.

Question 29

Let me take you back to a quote from a discourse you gave in Poona, India. "Whatsoever is happening here is happening with my knowledge. Not a single thing that happens here is happening without my knowledge, so you need not inform me about things. I know them already, and this you have to understand absolutely. I may not come out of my room. I never come out except in the morning and in the evening. I never go around the ashram, but whatsoever happens is perfectly known to me, and is happening according to me. Please don't interfere."

Question 30

You're referring to Poona now?

Question 31

But from your point of enlightenment, with the clarity of vision.... But surely you had a lot of contact with Sheela?

Question 32

But you've known her since she was what...? Sixteen?

Question 33

Well, that's 15 years. Did she indicate to you by actions or verbally that she was no longer happy here? Did you get any sense of what was about to happen on September 14?

Question 34

Had she verbalized that to you?

Question 35

I interviewed Sheela August 22. She was very clear to me at that time that she was not here for enlightenment at all. She was not into the spiritual aspect at all. She was here purely and simply because she loved you -- whatever her definition of love was, be it conditional or unconditional. Now why would someone like that be your personal secretary? That's the difficulty I have understanding.

Question 36

But in your discourses you have said that you're looking to merge Western materialism with Eastern spiritually.

Question 37

You have said that you want to merge Buddha and Zorba, to come up with the new man. So I have difficulty understanding once again when you say that everyone who is meditating is spaced out. So really what you've done is you've given a dichotomy again.

Question 38

You are, because you're saying that spaced out people cannot go get these things done, pragmatic people like Sheela can.

Question 39

When did you receive Sheela's letter of resignation?

Question 40

Verbally?

Question 41

So Savita was the one that informed you that Sheela was leaving?

Question 42

When were you told by Savita that Sheela was going to resign? Do you remember the day?

Question 43

Could that be Friday the 13th?

Question 44

So you have not seen her since she left...?

Question 45

She did write a letter to you.

Question 46

When did you start to become aware of some of the charges that you subsequently made about her about the poisonings?

Question 47

She left on the afternoon about quarter to seven.

Question 48

And they started leaving between the 14th and 15th. But did the sannyasins start to come to you, and who started coming to you?

Question 49

But how did you find out about the wiretapping, the bugging?

Question 50

Were you talking directly to the sannyasins who were making the allegations, or were you getting your information ... through your doctor and through your personal secretary?

Question 51

So did you compile all of this information then on Sunday, September the 15th?

Question 52

And then you went public with it the following morning.

Question 53

But since you were dealing with what would be called in criminal law, hearsay evidence...

Question 54

So you have no firsthand knowledge of these things?

Question 55

They haven't said too much yet have they?

Question 56

There was some confusion in the reporting, in the research I did, in terms of drugs being administered or poison, and whether the drugs were being used in all restaurants and eateries in Rajneeshpuram. What were you saying, that selected dishes were being poisoned or drugged? What exactly, what allegation were you making? Maybe you could tell us.

Question 57

All the food throughout Rajneeshpuram?

Question 58

What kind of drug?

Question 59

Do you know what the effects of haldol are?

Question 60

You also said that as much as forty-three million dollars may have been sitting in a swiss bank account in Sheela's name. Has that been proved yet?

Question 61

She's found it now? This bank account has been located?

Question 62

Sheela, of course, denies this charge, as you are no doubt aware.

Question 63

I said, Der Stern must be paying her something for the interviews she's giving now.

Question 64

I don't know. But that (inaudible)

Question 65

With respect to the Swiss bank account, are you aware that in the Oregonian of September 23rd, Maria Grazia Mori, formerly a sannyasin named Deeksha....

Question 66

When she helped you run your business affairs in India and the U.S., she said in a June 26th interview that she was present when Sheela discussed a Swiss bank account with you. And the conversation took place in Montclair, New Jersey in June of 1981. Now, Mori said Sheela told you she'd deposited a million dollars for your benefit. To which you supposedly replied "one million?" giving the distinct impression that the sum was far too low. And Maria then said Sheela quickly reassured you that the one million was only a beginning balance. Can you comment on that?

Question 67

So you were never involved in June of '81 in that conversation with Deeksha and Sheela?

Question 68

When did you ask her about that information, where the bank account was located? What date?

Question 69

This is the marriage to Dipo, is it?

Question 70

It was towards the end of November and I think....

Question 71

And spoke to you about it....

Question 72

Would you respond to some of the quotes that Sheela has given? She says, "I told bhagwan often enough that we could not afford to buy all those expensive items, autos and such forever, or I would have to take bread away from the people."

Question 73

She said that her disenchantment began with you a year and a half ago when you asked her to get you a $2.5 million watch. Is that true?

Question 74

Sheela brought those for you?

Question 75

She also said that you threatened to leave your body when she told you she would not buy you another Rolls Royce.

Question 76

I was going to ask you that....

Question 77

So would Sheela have accepted those cars on your behalf? Or was it up to you to say yes or no?

Question 78

Last night you renounced your Rajneeshism and the religion. By extension are there no longer sannyasins?

Question 79

But in our last interview you were saying that you had the only religion.

Question 80

Now you say you have no religion.

Question 81

So you are no longer a religious leader?

Question 82

What sort of impact is that going to have on your application for a green card?

Question 83

One of the grounds that you're applying, as I understand it, was on the grounds of being a religious leader.

Question 84

Who is they?

Question 85

People are saying that things aren't what they appear; three possibilities what's going on here.

Question 86

First one: You are trying to resuscitate a dying organization by making Sheela the scapegoat.

Question 87

The second is: This is all a smokescreen for your imminent departure from the U.S.

Question 88

And the third: that you are naive about what has happened.

Question 89 : Mike Zielenzinger, Knight Ridder, Newspapers, United States

If the mission of this, new 'religiousness without the religion', is to provoke an inward journey by your sannyasins, why the need for a commune and the organization?

Question 90

But the commune is also a political entity in ...

Question 91

People are brought together.

Question 92

But you have a variety of organizations that take care of the various activities of the group here.

Question 93

Then how could this fascist rule grow up in your midst?

Question 94

You have discussed often the sense that doubt and the absence of faith are very important. How could it be so that so many of your friends could let this happen?

Question 95

So what do you do?

Question 96

If the work here is ongoing, and the conditions are continually in the flux of growth ...

Question 97

How can you destroy this religion that grew up without your knowing?

Question 98

I don't know how well understood that notion is, because you have said it. I see everybody is still wearing mala today.

Question 99

And I understand you gave people an option about that.

Question 100

You've said that it is important to have freedom for the individual. How could a state of bondage be created among your most devout followers? Does that not attack the very root of the belief?

Question 101

Do you feel a sense of betrayal about those who've left you?

Question 102

But even friends can feel betrayed.

Question 103

What was your motivation, if any, about breaking your silence, or was it just the right time, say existentially?

Question 104

You were still silent at this point?

Question 105

When the first two poisoning occurred you were still silent.

Question 106

When the first two incidents occurred did you believe what was said to you? Weren't you surprised?

Question 107

But there was quite a period of time between the initial report in your period of silence, about being poisoned, and Sheela's departure.

Question 108

How come you didn't either act sooner, or act more on your suspicion?

Question 109

Did you assume at that point that Sheela was involved?

Question 110

What would've been her motivation if you were still silent? You've said previously that as you broke your silence, Sheela could see her power ebbing away. Why do this even when you're maintaining your silence, when she's still the lead spokesman and awarded with all the television time?

Question 111

You've already said to me, to others that Sheela was not a meditative sort, but certainly there were others who were, that you could on the one hand be a devout sannyasin and on the other hand carry out these activities. Does this not make you question some of your own teachings, or how your teachings have been interpreted?

Question 112

And you yourself looking back, have no personal doubts about... yourself, or your role, or the way your teachings have been interpreted by others?

Question 113

She paraded around as if she did, and you never interfered.

Question 114

But shouldn't somebody have spoken up about that one percent? Shouldn't someone have prevented this fascist gang -- as you call it -- from being created?

Question 115

But the hundreds who came to you after she left, why couldn't they have come to you before she left?

Question 116

But only after the fact.

Question 117

Do you think that was, perhaps a mistake? -- of at least being so silent and so removed for so long?

Question 118

You discussed before -- and I don't know if you were joking, but I suspect you were not -- about sannyasins who are spaced out in their own meditation. Could it not be that this state of being spaced out would interfere with their ability to confront a wrong in their midst.

Question 119

But this was supposed to be an idealistic place, an idyllic place. Does not all this evil energy....

Question 120

Are ethics relative?

Question 121

I don't speak for the U.S. as a country, but some individuals have ethics, yes.

Question 122

We also forced him out; Sheela left of her own volition.

Question 123

Is Sheela part of a fascist gang, or did she make one small mistake? Ninety-nine percent of what she did, you said was quite good. Which is it?

Question 124

What prevents something like this from happening again? You've discussed the decentralization of power. Do you feel as if you need to be more involved in the running of this place?

Question 125

You will watch in a way that you weren't watching before. Or will it be the same?

Question 126

Although parenthetically, we are told that you did have discussion from time to time with Sheela and perhaps one or two of your other aides, about activities and events.

Question 127

But there's no guarantee that this will ever happen... that this couldn't happen again.

Question 128

Do you fear that sannyasins -- especially those who don't live here -- will become discouraged with what's happened here, or abandon the religiousness.

Question 129

You said you wanted to root out all the evil that Sheela had created. Is that job completed, or is there still more evil that needs to be extirpated?

Question 130

That job is done.

Question 131

And the formal abolition, yesterday, of the religion was part of that; or was a separate activity?

Question 132

Although Sheela was a part of that too, you've said.

Question 133

As a result of this crisis, a lot of foreign agents have come here: the FBI, and Oregon state police. You've welcomed them here, you've essentially opened your records, your files, your books.

Question 134

This community has had its disagreements with the authorities in the state. It doesn't make your nervous that they're here?

Question 135

But haven't you and your aides given them tremendous power to potentially destroy this community.

Question 136

What if they say no, we're not interested in arresting you.

Question 137

You're confident that your requests are always followed by your sannyasins by your followers?

Question 138

You're doing these interviews nightly. You did a national television interview yesterday. Do you like that?

Question 139

You enjoy not only the experience of being questioned, but the fact that your words are being transmitted to all these people.

Question 140

It sounds to me as if you are hoping to offset any threat from the state, or from the federal government, or from the INS through the media.

Question 141

Do you ever watch your interviews after you've made them?

Question 142

You were interviewed last night by a television network. Will you later on look at your videotape, how you performed?

Question 143

Do you watch television from the outside?

Question 144

How do you choose your reading these days?

Question 145

What's going on now will involve a lot of lawyers and consultants, and....

Question 146

Will you consult with them at all?

Question 147

But your most recent experiences don't suggest to you that you need to take more direct control of any...?

Question 148

(inaudible)

Question 149

How did you choose Hasya, as opposed to anybody else? How was that process done, and how...?

Question 150

As your secretary for the moment?

Question 151

Not by you.

Question 152

How can you be confident that all the evil members of the fascist gang have disappeared, that some are not still here? Because there are many people who had positions of power before who are still here.

Question 153

Why would the government want to protect them?

Question 154

Is that an (inaudible)? Is the commune in danger of being destroyed?

Question 155

But I hear talk on the streets among people here, who say, "Gee, you know, I don't understand what's going on around here anymore," and "things're changing so quickly it's uncomfortable."

Question 156

But the community, not you as an individual -- have spent millions to create a...

Question 157

Do then you do feel threatened by all this activity.

Question 158

How do you mean that?

Question 159

Do you feel as if it's important to have a armageddon-like confrontation with the powers of the state and the federal government.

Question 160

Is that inevitable, if not now, then someday soon?

Question 161

I thought you were never leaving?

Question 162

Many people want a simple layman's description of what you try to teach. So for their benefit, how would you describe the process in oh, fifty words or less, to let the average people understand.

Question 163

(inaudible)

Question 164

You said before, the work of the Zorba is finished. What did you mean by that, and what is the future work?

Question 165

I meant the question actually in more concrete terms, that perhaps the logistical work, the building work, the physical labor of creating a community here, was over. Is that true?

Question 166

Sheela essentially ran this community for quite a long time. Sheela's word was law. Do you not feel as if there is long term credibility problems or psychic problems among sannyasins if suddenly the person who has been in charge is all of a sudden...

Question 167

Do you think, therefore, that you will never again take a vow of silence? Do you think it's too dangerous to the rest of this community?

Question 168

Could you not designate someone to pay a visit to Sheela and suggest that?

Question 169

But you will do that?

Question 170

You (inaudible) of the hostility that might exist ...

Question 171

Would it be right for people here to hate Sheela?

Question 172

Given what's taken place here, are you likely to again take another vow of silence?