Talk:Amrit Dwar (अमृत द्वार)
Current Understanding
| event | audio, OshoWorld |
audio, Osho.com |
Sadhana Pocket book ed. (*1) | 2016 book edition (*1) | Shailendra's PDF | Osho.com library | Oshoganga (*2) | OshoWorld e-book (*3) | Dates & Places |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Amrit Dwar ~ 01 | #1 | 1. धर्म है वैयक्तिक अनुभूति | 1. धर्म है वैयक्तिक अनुभूति | 1. धर्म है वैयक्तिक अनुभूति | 1. धर्म है वैयक्तिक अनुभूति | 15 Mar 1968 am, Poona (*5) | |||
| Amrit Dwar ~ 02 | #2 | 2. विश्वास नहीं, विचार | 2. विश्वास नहीं--विचार | 2. विश्वास नहीं, विचार | 2. विश्वास नहीं--विचार | 15 Mar 1968 pm, Poona (*5) | |||
| Amrit Dwar ~ 03 | #3 | 3. ज्ञान नहीं, विस्मय | 3. ज्ञान नहीं--विस्मय | 3. ज्ञान नहीं, विस्मय | 3. ज्ञान नहीं--विस्मय | 16 Mar 1968 am, Poona (*5) | |||
| Amrit Dwar ~ 04 | #4 | 4. अपने स्वधर्म की खोज | 2. नाचो--धर्म है नाच | 4. अपने स्वधर्म की खोज | 4. अपने स्वधर्म की खोज | 4. अपने स्वधर्म की खोज | 2. नाचो धर्म है नाच missing first 1,5 paragraphs and all second half |
2. नाचो धर्म है नाच missing first 1,5 paragraphs and all second half |
16 Mar 1968 pm, Poona (*5) |
| Amrit Dwar ~ 05 | #5 | 5. दुख नहीं, आनंद | 1. नाचो--अहोभाव है नाच | 5. दुख नहीं--आनंद | 5. दुख नहीं, आनंद | 5. दुख नहीं--आनंद | 1. नाचो अहोभाव है नाच missing first 1,5 sentences date: 15 March 1968 am, Poona (*4) |
1. नाचो अहोभाव है नाच missing first 1,5 sentences date: 15 March 1968 am, Poona (*4) |
17 Mar 1968 am, Poona (*5) |
| Jeevan Alok ~ 01 | #6 | Jeevan Alok 1. नाचो--जीवन है नाच first sentence incomplete |
3. नाचो--जीवन है नाच | Jeevan Alok 1. नाचो--जीवन है नाच | none |
|
3. नाचो जीवन है नाच date: 7 May 1967 am, Birla Kreeda Kendra, Bombay (*6) |
7 May 1968 am, Birla Kreeda Kendra, Bombay | |
| Jeevan Alok ~ 02 | Jeevan Alok 2. नाचो--शून्यता है नाच avalable only first 15 min |
6. नाचो--शून्यता है नाच | Jeevan Alok 2. नाचो--शून्यता है नाच | none | 9. नाचो--शून्यता है नाच | 6. नाचो शून्यता है नाच marked as "tape no.10" date: 7 May 1968, Bombay |
7 May 1968, Bombay | ||
| Jeevan Alok ~ 03 (*7) | not available | 4. नाचो--प्रेम है नाच | Jeevan Alok 3. नाचो--प्रेम है नाच | none |
|
4. नाचो प्रेम है नाच date: 8 Sep 1968, Baroda |
8 Sep 1968, Baroda (now Vadodara, GJ) | ||
| Jeevan Alok ~ 04 | not available | 5. नाचो--समग्रता है नाच | Jeevan Alok 4. नाचो--समग्रता है नाच | none |
|
5. नाचो समग्रता है नाच date: 21 Sep 1968, Bombay, Patrakar-Varta (press conference) |
21 Sep 1968, Bombay | ||
| Jeevan Alok ~ 05 | not available | 7. नाचो--क्रांति है नाच date: 15 Mar 1968 om, Poona |
Jeevan Alok 5. नाचो--क्रांति है नाच | none | 10. नाचो--क्रांति है नाच | 15 Mar 1968 om**, Poona |
- Remarks
(*1) Comparing based on ch.titles as we had not these books.
(*2) 6 chapters of Oshoganga have one cover and ch.7-10 - another cover. Perhaps this is the reason why ch.6-8 are the same as ch.3-5. Their big difference is absence of dates. Some chapters have dates. It seems first 5 chapters are taken from OshoWorld e-book. Available on Oshoganga also as Jeevan Alok: their titles and order match to Jeevan Alok Shailendra's PDF.
(*3) Chapter title do not have chapter numbers in the book. All chapters have dates except second one.
(*4) Date is incorrect in both sources perhaps because of confusion ch.1 as beginning of series. This date is indeed date for first talk, but ch.1 in these two sources is last talk, not first, of the series.
(*5) Place can be Mahabaleshwar as per Letter written on 23 Nov 1967. Or perhaps it was shifted.
(*6) Year in both sources are incorrect and it should be 1968: in that date in 1967 Osho was in Indore. The event confirmed by Manuscripts ~ Programmes Timeline Extraction: place, date and time match.
(*7) Quote on 8 Sep 1968 in T.R.E.M.O. (source document) matches well with ch.3 of Shailendra's PDF.
Deliberations
Sole source regarding the first publication listed here was G**gle Books, whose info was a bit thin and unsupported. There was no cover image or look inside the book.
Both Osho World and osho.com had audiobook offerings, with five chapters with the following titles:
- प्रवचन:
- 1. धर्म है अवयक्तिक अनुभूति
- 2. विश्वास नहीं, विचार
- 3. ज्ञान नहीं विस्मय
- 4. अपने स्वधर्म की खोज
- 5. दुख नहीं, आनंद
Places offering plain old audio download had six discourses, all running around an hour. What happened to the sixth one in the audiobooks? Possibly its sound was not very good. At any rate, the e-book version has six chapters but the second chapter is very much shorter, perhaps representing all that could be salvaged.
There was a decent amount of date-and-place info found in the e-book, at the ends of the ostensible chapters, followed by what seemed to be titles for the next chapters, but these "titles" were fairly routinized and bore no resemblance to the audiobook titles above. That info is presented below fwiw, and comes from the Osho World e-book, likely the source for most or all of what's out there:
- p1 -- Nache Ahobhav Hai Nach (नाचे अहोभाव है नाच)
- p16 - Pune dinanka 15 Mar 1968 subah (am) -- Nache Dharm Hai Nach
- p25 - date and place data missing -- Nache Jeevan Hai Nach
- p42 - Birla Kreeda Kendra, Bombay dinanka 7 May 1967 subah -- Nache Prem Hai Nach
- p57 - Ai Baroda (आई बड़ौदा), dinanka 8 Sep 1968 -- Nache Samagrata Hai Nach
- p69 - Patrakar-Varta, (पत्रकार-वार्ता, press conference) Bombay, dinanka 21 Sep 1968 -- Nache Shunyata Hai Nach
- p98 - tep na. 10 (tape no.10) Bombay dinanka 7 May 1968
Place info for the fourth chapter suggests that that talk may have been given in Baroda (GJ, now known as Vadodara). See also Amrit Varsha (अमृत वर्षा), another six-discourse collection of Osho's responses to questions from seekers in Pune and Mumbai. -- Sarlo (talk) 11:42, 17 June 2014 (PDT)
Jun 2017 update:
We are now blessed with info about OMI's 2016 edition (presumed hard cover on the basis of removable dust jacket). There are some small differences between the audiobook titles and the latest hard copy, detailed below:
- प्रवचन:
- 1. धर्म है वैयक्तिक अनुभूति . . . . 1
- 2. विश्वास नहीं—विचार . . . . . . 23
- 3. ज्ञान नहीं—विस्मय . . . . . . . 49
- 4. अपने स्वधर्म की खोज . . . . . .69
- 5. दुख नहीं—आनंद . . . . . . . . . 95
The long dashes inserted do seem to be an improvement in making clear the intent of the title, but one word has been changed to its near-opposite in the first chapter/discourse: अवयक्तिक has been changed to वैयक्तिक. Whether this is a distortion or an "improvement" in clarifying Osho's intent can be determined by the reader.
The old title meant "Religion (the way) is (an) impersonal experience". The new one means, according to G**gle Translate, "Religion (the way) is (an) individual experience". There is likely a small subtlety here too that is meant to be conveyed: The letter अ (a) placed in front of an adjective turns it into its opposite; thus its removal (from the old title) would turn "impersonal" back into "personal". The small twist here, the "near-opposite" is that a vowel has also been changed, so that "personal" becomes "individual".
One cannot entirely rely on G**gle Translate for subtlety, i'm here to tell you, but its attempt here might be accurate. And is "individual" -- or "personal", if G**gle has gone off the rails or OMI has made a small typo or whatever -- an "improvement" over "impersonal"? Only a real Hindi reader can know. -- doofus-9 17:19, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
I see in the above list 7 pages, and only 5 dates. Does this point to 5, 6, or 7 "events"/chapters, e.g. looking at the lay-out?
Can I use the dates for the timeline, or is it too uncertain?
Background: The timline now only has #02 ("1967 or 1968 ?") and #03 ("7 May 1967 pm"). And there are 6 OW audios! --Sugit (talk) 09:09, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
The frequent format of Hindi e-books is to have the title (if any) on the first page of the chapter and the date and location info (if any) at the end of the chapter, followed immediately by the title (if any) of the next chapter. There is frequently as little as one line of space between one chapter and the next, not always easy to spot, but whatever!
This set-up means there will be one more page noted as having info than there are chapters. So here, 7 info pages = 6 chapters. Dates, titles, etc, are a more random occurrence, so the absence of what should be the full array of titles or dates does not imply anything, except that there is missing info. -- doofus-9 21:51, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Some light (source - Sw Jagdish Bharti):
- 1. 15.03.1968 am, Poona
- 2. 15.03.1968 pm, Poona (Ques. and Ans.)
- 3. 16.03.1968 am, Poona
- 4. 16.03.1968 pm, Poona (Ques. and Ans.)
- 5. 17.03.1968 am, Poona
Let's stick to 5 chapters and 6th move to unknown info (~ year unknown). The current Timeline has scattered dates...--DhyanAntar 12:34, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Conclusion: as this information from Sw Jagdish Bharti is different from the info of the e-book, and we have no indication of the reliability of these sources, for now we are not able to decide what is more likely. --Sugit (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
I have re-checked the dates and places info in the e-book (to make sure i transcribed it properly) and it still stands. One incorrect e-book page number was updated. There is more info available now though that adds weight to the case that "7 May 1967 am" is wrong for the date for #03. This is info that supports May 7 as part of a series in Indore, from 5-8 May, Ek Naya Dwar (एक नया द्वार). These are data from Shailendra's e-book for Naya Dwar (which should be entered in Naya Dwar's talk page for the sake of keeping our info straight).
Since there was conflicting info and we cannot easily evaluate which is more reliable, there was a good reason to leave things as they were. Now the new data, on Sheet B-1 in Manuscripts ~ Reports, transcribed and evaluated at Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction, make the e-book May 7 (am) date for Amrit Dwar #03 more unreliable. I will update the 1967 Timeline accordingly, still leaving it there but with a bigger Question Mark and lower status. #03 now has Jagdish's info saying it was in 1968 and two sources saying the May 7 1967 spot belongs to Ek Naya Dwar. -- doofus-9 22:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
Osho's Itinerary confirmes Jagdish' dates (15-17 Mar 1968, Poona).--DhyanAntar 08:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Some extracts from text AD (source of text - Shailendra's PDF):
Chapter 1: morning talk on first sutra (thoughts). "There are three hundred religions on the ground, can there be three hundred sciences? On the day there will be three hundred sciences on the ground, understand that the land has become a big madhouse. But there are three hundred religions on the ground. And every day they stand up because a madman gets the idea that I have got the truth, and he can beat the table loudly and say that I have got the truth..." Ends by "In the matter of religion, we are clinging to the old ways like mad. We have stopped thinking, thinking, messaging them all. Our conscience is blocked. If this conscience awakens, then a new revolution can come in the life of man. Human consciousness can undergo a new revolution. I will talk to you in subsequent discussions regarding how this revolution can happen."
Chapter 2: q/a. Starts by "In the morning discussion I have said some things. There have been some questions in that regard. And there are also some independent questions. I said in the morning that there are three hundred religions on earth, and so many religions inform that mankind has not yet become rational and scientific in relation to religion. (Reference to ch.1) Scientific rules are universal, universal. Mathematics is one of the whole earth. Religion can also be the same. There will be no need for separate temples and different scriptures of religions on earth on the day when we will be able to have the right wise, thoughtful and scientific vision regarding God." "A friend has asked: Which is the best religion among these three hundred religions?" Ends by "So the emphasis that I am giving, they should be snatched with the help of all kinds of intelligence, so that the intellect can be violated. There is no experience of truth without the encroachment of the intellect. In this regard and in the next two days of discussions, this will be clear. There are some questions left, I will talk to you about them tomorrow." (Reference to ch.4)
Chapter 3: talk on 2nd sutra. "The first sutra is: not faith, thoughts. We talked about it yesterday. (Reference to ch.1) Today, we will talk on the second sutra, what is the second sutra of the life-revolution, the second sutra is: no knowledge, amazement. By holding on to faith, you will become knowledgeable. And what we call knowledgeable, which we call pundit, which we call learning, that man never becomes religious." "Yesterday morning I did not believe, thoughts; Not blindness, eyes; No acceptance, doubt, talked to you on the first thread on this. The first formula of the life-revolution is: not faith, but thought. No revolution is possible in the life of those who walk by faith." (Reference to ch.1) Ends by "Second Sutra: Wonder, not knowledge. No old eyes, no old eyes from experience, no old eyes learned; Unseen, unlearned, straight, simple, child-like invention, innocent eyes, those eyes are capable of exposing the truth of life. I said this a little bit in relation to the second sutra, will tell you tomorrow morning in relation to the third sutra." (Reference to ch.5)
Chapter 4: q/a. Starts by "A lot of questions have been asked based on yesterday's discussions." "Another friend has asked if all religions when I call disease ...? Yesterday I said, yesterday someone had asked, which is the best religion among the three hundred religions? (Reference to ch.2) Today some of his friends came again, he was probably not present yesterday. They must have been present as far as possible. They are asking that you are right about all other religions, but with regard to Jainism, you are a big mess." In the end: "I said these little things somewhere. And many questions remain, there is no end to the questions. I answer all the questions, there is no need. The only thing that is needed is to point you to the direction in which the answers to the questions can be found. So I picked a few figurative questions for you and I discussed them, so that you can think in which direction I think. In which direction the thinking goes, then the questions can be captured properly and answers can be available."
Chapter 5: morning talk on 3rd sutra. "I have spoken to you yesterday and before regarding the two sources. The first sutra was for life-revolution, to raise eyes in the direction of the divine - the first sutra was: not faith, thoughts. The second sutra was: astonishment, not knowledge. And the third sutra is: not sorrow, joy. We all see life only through sorrow and suffering, and thousands of years of teachings, wrong teachings have destroyed our ability to see life in a blissful way..." (continuing to speak on 3rd sutra.) "This is the third thread of the religious revolution: the sense of joy, of grace, of gratitude. The deeper and evolving this feeling is, the more life changes and the more it starts appearing in matter which is not matter." Ends by "Finally, I will repeat the first episode: no faith, no blindness; idea. Second link: no knowledge, no more knowledge, no knowledge learned from words and scriptures, but astonishment. And the third thing: the inability of life, no sense of sorrow, no despair, no sadness, no darkness; Feelings of joy, expressions of grace, thanks, gratitude bring revolution in a man's life and make him stand at the door of the Lord's temple. May God, all of us reach the temple of God. May God, we should not be stone-breaking laborers. May God, we should not be bread earners. May God, let us become artisans who build the temple of God. You heard these things for three days with so much peace, so much love, I am very grateful for that. And I bow to the divine sitting inside everyone. Accept my greetings."
So above 5 chapters are 3-day talk series and they are in chronological order. Things are cleared as here are two series, table of Current Understanding shows correspondence of events and sources.--DhyanAntar 08:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
