Talk:Amrit Varsha (अमृत वर्षा)
Current Understanding
| event (plus alt-titles) |
audio, OshoWorld |
audio, Osho.com |
Shailendra's e-book | Dates, places |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Amrit Varsha ~ 01 | #1 | 1. सत्य का दर्शन -- 69 min | 1. सत्य का दर्शन | 3 Sep 1967 pm, Poona |
| Amrit Varsha ~ 02 | #2 | 2. शून्य का संगीत -- 70 min | 2. शून्य का संगीत | 4 Sep 1967 am, Poona |
| Amrit Varsha ~ 03 | #4 | 3. सत्य की भूमि -- 57 min | 3. सत्य की भूमि | 19 Jun 1965, Ahinsa Hall, Bombay |
| Amrit Varsha ~ 04 | #5 | 4. जागरण का आनंद -- 62 min | 4. जागरण का आनंद | 20 Jun 1965, Sunderban Hall, Bombay |
| Amrit Varsha ~ 05 | #3 | 5. धर्म की यात्रा -- 49 min | 5. धर्म की यात्रा | 17 Sep 1967 am, Balasinor (GJ) |
| Amrit Varsha ~ 06 | - | 6. अपने अज्ञान का अस्वीकार (*1) -- 57 min, missing first 6 words |
6. अपने अज्ञान का स्वीकार missing first 6 words |
1965, Lions Club International, Poona |
Remarks:
- (*1) Although Osho.com site gives the title as अपने अज्ञान का अस्वीकार, Apne Agyan Ka Asweekar, the title for their 2010 version of the audio file has it as Apne Agyan Ka Sweekar, - the same as in Shailendra's e-book. (Sweekar = "accept".) Whether "Asweekar" is a mistake or an intended correction remains to be seen. "Asweekar" is basically the negation / opposite of "Sweekar".
Source of dates of first 5 events - Jagdish Bharti, for 6th - Aath Pahar Youn Jhumte (आठ पहर यूं झूमते), ch.1.
- Jagdish stated the date 3.9.76 for first event. This is obvious typo (rest dates are 1965-1967, and this date in 1976 is taken by other events).
This book, Varsha, is in some ways a companion volume to Amrit Dwar (अमृत द्वार), both being six-discourse collections of Osho's responses to seekers' questions in Pune and Mumbai. Drawing on that similarity, it may be reasonable to suppose that the talks were given, like Dwar's, in the late 60s, though in this case we have no e-book to validate that. There IS a Varsha e-book among those listed in Osho World's collection, but it is not available.
Varsha demonstrates a curious flip-side compared to Dwar in regard to audio availability. Where Dwar's audiobook version has one less track than the free download versions -- the much more common discrepancy -- Varsha's audiobook version has one more, with the freebie sites offering only five. It is not out of the question that the extra discourse in the six-track audiobook collection is a kind of mistake, but it may also be "just" a Mystery. -- Sarlo (talk) 11:25, 17 June 2014 (PDT)
Most of date missing in Timeline.--DhyanAntar 16:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes, so it's time to put them IN the Timeline. Observations in square brackets above look reasonable. There is an alternative possibility for #6, which is that it was a separate discourse in the same venue but pm after an am talk. This is also reasonable but there are other indications: two sources have Varsha #6 the same as a talk from other books. Shifting content in Hindi books (source document) has it the same as both Aath Pahar Youn Jhumte (आठ पहर यूं झूमते) #1 and Jeevan Ki Kala (जीवन की कला) #3; and Talk:Agyat Ki Or (अज्ञात की ओर) has it the same as Agyat #6 and JKK #3. So we can leave it out for now. -- doofus-9 01:21, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
- On second thought, the Timeline is a bit crowded around Jun 19-20 1965 in Mumbai, and 1965 is not very crowded in general. There are already two talks on the 18th and two more on the 19th from Amrit Ki Disha (अमृत की दिशा). A third on the 19th would not be impossible but i don't feel to strain against what's already there. It too is uncertain, and sourced to Jagdish, but enough of this for today. (There's also another talk on the 20th in Mumbai that two different sources agree is from another series that Jagdish puts in Punjab, though without a date, but that's another story.) -- doofus-9 05:05, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Events 1, 2 and 5 are awaiting of checking with manuscript Reports. They can be those events, which are already in Timeline: "Unknown discourses Balasinor 1967 ~ 01" ~ 02, "Unknown discourses Poona 1967 ~ 01 ~ 03".--DhyanAntar 06:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Dilip checked relation of these events:
- "Checked ch.1 and 2 of Amrit Varsha with data of Reports manuscript excerpted from sheet C-7-8 for the talks at Poona. They are not related. Also we cannot say that the excerpt represents the message of the ch.1 & 2 in different words.
- "Also checked ch.5 of Amrit Varsha with Reports manuscript data excerpted from sheet C-13-14 for the talks at Balasinor. They are not related. Also we cannot say that the excerpt represents the message of the ch.5 in different words."
He also noted about the series:
- "Disc 1 & 2 seems to well be connected. At the end of 1st Disc Osho says “कैसे इस बंधन से जो हमारा ही निर्मित है छुटकारा हो सकता है, उसकी बात कल सुबह मैं आपसे करूंगा। - How to get freed from this bondage which is our own creation – I will talk about that to you tomorrow morning.” May be Disc 3 also is somewhat connected in continuation. But Disc 4 doesn’t seem to be from same series of continuous talks."
Aha, so 1st talk of the book was given in the morning. As "हिंसा" and "ईर्ष्या" - words from the manuscript related with talk in evening of 3 Sep (maybe there are more words-matching?) - can be found in chapter 1 too and date of this talk also is known from Jagdish, it is the same (3 Sep), so i am sure that this is "Unknown discourses Poona 1967 ~ 02" of 3 talks in Poona with students in 1967, mentioned in the Reports. Replaced in Timeline. Also replaced 3rd "unknown discourse" by 2nd event of this series.
Yes, talks 3 and 4 are related between each other and not related with first two (different dates).
- "Disc 5 & 6 are connected and in fact there should be two more talks to complete one series as Disc 5 to 8. In middle of Disc 5 Osho says:
- “इसलिए मैं आज की सुबह इस चर्चा में आपसे यह निवेदन करना चाहूंगा, फिर आने वाली तीन चर्चाओं में आपसे उस पर विस्तार से बात हो सकेगी। मृत्यु की कसौटी ही सबसे बड़ी कसौटी है मनुष्य के समक्ष, जिस पर वह कस कर देख ले कि उसके पास सोना है या मिट्टी। जो चीज मृत्यु की कसौटी पर व्यर्थ हो जाती हो उसे वह जान ले कि वह मिट्टी है, क्योंकि मृत्यु की ताकत केवल मिट्टी पर ही चल सकती है। जीवन पर मृत्यु की कोई ताकत नहीं चल सकती।”
- This means:
- “Hence in the morning talk I want to appeal to you - again in the three upcoming deliberations I can have detailed talk on that with you – death is the greatest test of all in front of a man on which he can check that whether he has gold or dust. Thing that becomes useless at the test (time) of death – he should know that is the dust – because power of death works only on dust. On life, no power of death can work.” "
So, here is exact time (am) of this 5th event. Although Dilip did not find relation of quote from manuscript Report with text of this event, following clues say that this is first talk in Balasinor in 1967 ("three upcoming deliberations"), date of event 17 Sep am, - first date of Balasinor talks confirmed by the manuscript, and manuscript gives three events in that period in this place. All fit well with 3 talks in Balasinor. Replaced "Unknown discourses Balasinor 1967 ~ 01" by Amrit Varsha ~ 05.
- "Another thing to note", continued by Dilip, "is that two stories - 1. Beggar’s bowl remains unfilled even after the king empties his whole treasures and 2. Alexander’s empty hands shown outstretched at the time of his death procession - are repeated in both the Disc 1 & 5."
Maybe because they were repeated after 2 week.
- "Similarly story of the caged parrot shouting for freedom but is not only reluctant to come out when help is extended but keeps on holding to the cage very strongly – is repeated in both the Disc 2 & 6.
- "So we can say ‘Amrit Varsha (अमृत वर्षा)’ is a composition of two or more series of talks – at random.
- "OK if Disc 6 is in 1965 and at Poona it separates it out after Disc 5. So that's very nice. We can take it to other connecting compilation of talks. And so 6 may not form part of Amrit Varsha. 🤔
- "And in Disc 5 Osho says to discuss in upcoming three lectures in details.... that means there should be 3 more lectures in continuation at Balasinor. Please think it over." (Dilip)
I think Osho meant these three known talk in Balasinor (from Osho Timeline 1967): 17 Sep 1967 am, 17 Sep 1967 om (afternoon), 18 Sep 1967 am. Other alternative can be evening talk in Sep 17th. Sarlo, what do you think?--DhyanAntar 04:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
What i think is that i cannot follow all this, especially:
a) where Dilip appears to be saying one thing and you appear to be saying the opposite,
b) why the re-currence (co-incidence) of these Hindi words "हिंसा" and "ईर्ष्या" should be definitive proof of anything,
c) why Osho's words about tomorrow morning mean that the talk when he said these words is also in the morning,
d) and there may be more ...
I am not saying you're wrong, just that i am not so sure as you. After studying this thing last night and today, i am still unclear, so i will just leave it, with a suggestion that:
a) perhaps these soon-to-be-deleted "Unknown discourse at Poona/Balasinor" events were blanked prematurely, and
b) some record of their status should remain somewhere, besides in this Talk page.
- -0- doofus-9 19:41, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
About c) : his words about talking in the morning were in 3 Sep pm.--DhyanAntar 02:58, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, that's how it usually is when he is saying "I will ____ in the morning", but above, in your Aha statement, i thought you were making "his words about talking in the morning" in the am. That's why i was having trouble following. I would not be surprised if i misunderstood, but that's how i read what you wrote. -0- doofus-9 17:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
