Talk:Bharat Ka Bhavishya (भारत का भविष्य)

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Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld
audio,
Osho.com
Shailendra's PDF Oshoganga OshoWorld e-book Dates & Places
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 01 #1 1. भारत को जवान चित्त की आवश्यकता 1. भारत को जवान चित्त की आवश्यकता 1. भारत को जवान चित्त की आवश्यकता 1. भारत को जवान चित्त की आवश्यकता late 60s ?
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 02 #2 2. नये के लिए पुराने को गिराना आवश्यक 2. नये के लिए पुराने को गिराना आवश्यक 2. नये के लिए पुराने को गिराना आवश्यक 2. नये के लिए पुराने को गिराना आवश्यक late 60s ?
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 03 #3 (before 1h 5m 55s) 3. भारत की समस्याएं--कारण और निदान (*1) 3. भारत की समस्याएं--कारण और निदान 3. भारत की समस्याएं..कारण और निदान 3. (no title, p.31-50) late 60s ?
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 04 #3 (from 1h 5m 55s) 4. खोज की दृष्टि 4. खोज की दृष्टि 4. खोज की दृष्टि 3. (no title, p.50-57) late 60s ?
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 05 #4 (before 45m 40s) 5a. भारत किस आवर? (before 46min 6sec) (*2) 5. भारत किस ओर? 5. भारत किस ओर? 4. भारत किस ओर? (p.57-67) late 60s ?
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 06 #4 (from 45m 40s) 5b. पुराने और नए का समन्वय (from 46min 6sec) (*2) 6. पुराने और नए का समन्वय 6. पुराने और नये का समन्वय 4. भारत किस ओर? (p.68-72) late 60s ?
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 07 #5
beginning is very poor quality
6. आध्यात्मिक दृष्टि
beginning is very poor quality
(Khajana: #07, intro: "7")
7. आध्यात्मिक दृष्टि 7. आध्यात्मिक दृष्टि 5. (no title)
first sentence incomplete
late 60s? (am)
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 08 #6
beginning incomplete
7. अधिनायकशाही व्यक्ति की नहीं; विचार की
beginning incomplete
(Khajana: #08, intro: "8")
8. अधिनायकशाही व्यक्ति की नहीं; विचार की 8. डिक्टेटरशिप व्यक्ति की नहीं; विचार की 6. (no title) late 60s ?
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 09 #7
incomplete
8a. शिक्षा और समाज (before 55m 44s) (*2) incomplete
(Khajana: #09, intro: "9 and 10")
9. शिक्षा और समाज
incomplete
9. शिक्षा और समाज
incomplete
7. (no title)
incomplete
1971 (*3)
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 10 #8 (10 min)
beginning distorted; last words of interviewer incomplete in the end
8b. नारी का सहयोग (from 55m 44s) (*2) last words of interviewer incomplete in the end
(Khajana: #09, intro: "10")
10. नारी का सहयोग (ए रेडियो टॉक बाई ओशो)
"a radio talk"
last words of interviewer incomplete in the end
10. ए रेडियो टॉक बाई ओशो
last words of interviewer incomplete in the end
8. ए रेडियो टॉक बाॅय ओशो
last words of interviewer incomplete in the end
14 Feb 1968, radio (place unknown)
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 11 #9 9. भीतर चाहिए शांति और बाहर चाहिए असंतोष
(Khajana: #11, intro: "11")
11. भीतर चाहिए शांति और बाहर चाहिए असंतोष 11. (no title) 9. (no title) late 60s?, Rajkot
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 12 #10 10. क्या भारत धार्मिक है?
(Khajana: #12, intro: "12")
12. क्या भारत धार्मिक है? 12. (no title) 10. (no title) 30 Sep 1968 am, Vile Parle, Bombay
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 13 #11 11. एक नये भारत की ओर
(Khajana: #13, intro: "13")
13. एक नये भारत की ओर 13. एक नये भारत की ओर 11. (no title) 16 Aug 1970, Juhu Rotary Club, Bombay
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 14 #12 12. मेरी करुणा बहुत शाश्वत है
(Khajana: #14, intro: "14")
14. मेरी करुणा बहुत शाश्वत है 14. (no title) 12. (no title) late 60s?, Ajol
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 15 Samund Samana Bund Main #2 13. भारत का भविष्य
(Khajana: #15, intro: "15")
  • 15. भारत का भविष्य
  • Samund Samana Bund Mein 2. भारत का भविष्य
15. भारत का भविष्य 21 Jan 1968, Shanmukhananda Hall, Bombay (*4)
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 16 Samund Samana Bund Main #3 14. भारत का दुर्भाग्य
(Khajana: #16, intro: "16")
  • 16. भारत का दुर्भाग्य
  • Samund Samana Bund Mein 3. भारत का दुर्भाग्य
16. भारत का दुर्भाग्य 1 Oct 1968, New Era High School(?), Bombay (*5)
Bharat Ka Bhavishya ~ 17 15. क्या भारत को क्रांति की जरुरत है
"Audio Not Available"
17. क्या भारत को क्रांति की जरुरत है? 17. क्या भारत को क्रांति की जरूरत है?
"Audio tape of this discourse is no longer available"
29 Sep 1968, Bombay (*6)
notes
(*1) 89 min is incorrect duration which stated on the site (osho.com), which is the same as all OW audio #3. Correct and actual duration of the osho.com audio is 68min.
(*2) These 4 audios are selling on osho.com site as two jointed, i.e. audios #5 and 8 respectively.
(*3) Osho indicated exact dates of two camps in beginning of 1972, so this event was before Jan 1972. See below in extractions secrion for details.
(*4) These sources agree on this date: "Doc X" (with place Bombay, but gives one date out of 12 talks), Jagdish (image below; with exact place in Bombay), Hindi series of talks with dates (source document) and Osho Discourse Hindi List with dates (source document). They all except Jagdish give title of book only (Bharat Ka Bhavishya), which match with chapter title. As all source agreed on one date with the same title, then it is the good reason to equate date, place and the event.
(*5) Place "New Era High School" is needed to be confirmed. The place is from Jagdish source, he gives Baroda with it, which is incorrect. This talks is clearly was in Bombay, see below different sources on the talk.
(*6) Date is needed for confirmation. Other sources gives 21 Sep, see below.


Deliberations

One source ("Doc X") places this book on one day, Jan 21, 1968 in Bombay on Poli & Soc but really, one cannot imagine such a day. At best this is one date of many. Various sources have from twelve to seventeen discourses in this series. It seems reasonable to suppose that there are seventeen original discourses but because of poor sound quality much has been lost and compacted into twelve chapters in the e-book, which is the nearest thing we can find to hard copy.

TOC below reflects info from two audiobook offerings. Titles line up fairly well when missing discourses are ignored. Those discourses in one but not the other were specifically noted as having poor sound quality. One of the titles missing in OW's collection is, interestingly, used as a title in the e-book, one of the few titles that appear there. (And no date and place info either, alas).

A trivium: This title also belongs to a book by Vivekananda, perhaps appropriated by Osho? -- updated doofus-9 (talk) 10:12, 12 November 2014 (PST)

     osho.com audiobook
1: भारत को जवान चित्त की आवश्यकता
2: नये के लिए पुराने को गिराना आवश्यक
3: भारत की समस्याएं--कारण और निदान
4: खोज की दृष्टि
5: भारत किस आवर?
6: पुराने और नए का समन्वय
7: आध्यात्मिक दृष्टि
8: अधिनायकशाही व्यक्ति की नहीं; विचार की
9: शिक्षा और समाज
10: नारी का सहयोग
11: भीतर चाहिए शांति और बाहर चाहिए असंतोष
12: क्या भारत धार्मिक है?
13: एक नये भारत की ओर
14: मेरी करुणा बहुत शाश्वत है
15: भारत का भविष्य
16: भारत का दुर्भाग्य
17: क्या भारत को क्रांति की जरुरत है?
     Osho World audiobook (?)
1. भारत को जवान चित्त की आवश्यकता
2. नए के लिए पुराने को गिराना आवश्यक
3. भारत की समस्याएं--कारण और निदान
4. खोज की दृष्टि
 
 
5. आध्यात्मिक दृष्टि
6. अधिनायकशाही व्यक्ति की नहीं, विचार की
 
 
7. भीतर चाहिए शांति, और बाहर चाहिए असंतोष
8. क्या भारत धार्मिक है?
9. एक नए भारत की ओर
10. मेरी करुणा बहुत शाश्वत है
11. भारत का भविष्य
12. भारत का दुर्भाग्य
13. क्या भारत को क्रांति की जरूरत है?

E-book of Shailendra has the same TOC as Osho.com's, except two following titles:

5. भारत किस ओर? (here, Shailendra say the last word is correct according to o.com)
10. नारी का सहयोग (ए रेडियो टॉक बाई ओशो)

Also Shailendra states that 17th audio is missing.--DhyanAntar 14:25, 31 August 2018 (UTC)


Bharat Ka Bhavishya 1-17 D&P + Sakshi x2.jpg

Dates and Places image in from Jagdish illuminates a part of the picture regarding D&P. Text version below. The inclusion of two fragmentary infobits relating to Sakshi Ki Sadhana (साक्षी की साधना) and Sakshi Ka Bodh (साक्षी का बोध) perhaps can best be viewed as a distraction. More on that below.

1 to 9: audio missing
10. Feb 14 1968 on the radio (social / women)
11. no date Rajkot GJ (Gandhi / India, Q&A)
12. no date Vile Parle, Mumbai (India / spirituality)
13. no date Juhu Rotary Club, Mumbai (social / India)
14. no date Ajol GJ (social / Gandhi)
15. no date Shanmukhananda Hall, Mumbai
16. no date New Era High School, Baroda (now called Vadodara)
17. audio missing

Note that the transliterated titles given for ch 12 and 13 (see image) resonate well with those in osho.com's audiobook.

Regarding Sakshi Ki Sadhana and Sakshi Ka Bodh, these two "series" already have a complicated relationship with each other and with other series, so this image may or may not add a further layer to all that. Perhaps the most important thing to remember here is that both the Sakshi's are "spiritual-themed talks with roots in meditation camps, while Bhavishya is decidedly social-themed, with talks not given in camps.

And the numbers associated with them, 1-8 and 9-12, carry no other info with them, so what to make of them? If, as hinted at by their inclusion here, they might be together ch 1-12 of Bhavishya, how credible might that be? The answer appears to be, "Not at all". None of the Sakshi chapter titles correspond with Bhavishya's. So, likely their appearance here is "accidental", and as such a distraction, but left here fwiw. In the interconnected world of Osho's Hindi discourses, ya never know. -- doofus-9 00:12, 3 March 2019 (UTC)


On above table: OW has 12 audios, not 13 as stated in the table and its audios do not have titles. E-book of OW has 12 chapters too.--DhyanAntar 06:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)


Hindi series of talks with dates (source document), a new source of dates, lists a few single talks which are good-to-excellent candidates to fit in here:

1. "Kya Bharat Dharmik Hai, 1 talk, 30.09.68", same title as ch.12 from osho.com. Jagdish has that title in Mumbai, but no date. Rabia Osho books (source document) list agrees with this place (as Bombay) and date.
Title and date for this talk also confirmed by Osho Discourse Hindi List with dates (source document).--DhyanAntar 04:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
2. "Bharat Ka Durbhagya, 1 talk, 1.10.68", same title as ch.16 of osho.com. Jagdish's ch 16 has no title or date but says location is Baroda. Rabia Osho books (source document) list agree with the date, but place is Bombay. Osho gave another talk on this date in Bombay.
Title and date (not place) for this talk also confirmed by Osho Discourse Hindi List with dates (source document).--DhyanAntar 04:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
3. "Naye Bharat Ki Aur, 1 talk, 16.08.70", almost the same title as ch.13 from osho.com, and the same title as Jagdish ch 13. place from Jagdish is Mumbai and Timeline has other talk on this date in Mumbai. The relation with Naye Bharat Ki Or (नये भारत की ओर) is unclear.
This is all the same title, but osho.com is the only one to have transliterated it correctly. It seems though, that two sources are pointing to this talk on the same date (assuming they are independent), so really it should go in the Timeline. And while we are here, there are many mentions of Rabia Osho books (source document) around the wiki, but no page (source doc) to have a look at it. Can we have a page? -- doofus-9 23:27, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
ok, then it will come!--DhyanAntar 04:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
4. "Bharat Ka Bhavishya, 1 talk, 21.01.68", same title as ch.15 of osho.com. Jagdish's ch 15 has no title or date, location is Mumbai. On that date, Osho already has two other talks in Mumbai, or at least presumed other. Could be alt-titles, but neither talk seems to have a connection with Samund Samana Bund Mein (समुंद समाना बुंद में), the one which does have an alt-title relationship with Bhavishya.
Title and date for this talk also confirmed by Osho Discourse Hindi List with dates (source document).--DhyanAntar 04:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
5. "Kya Bharat Main, 1 talk, 29.09.68", title has no match either in osho.com or Jagdish but the date is suggestive, as both 1 and 2 above have consecutive dates and are highly likely to be part of Bhavishya.
Rabia Osho books (source document) list says: "kya bharat me adhyatnik kranti ki awashakata hai?, 1 lecture in Bombay, 21 Sep 1968". It looks as talk 17 in Shailendra's PDF, chapter title there is very close to Rabia's version "क्या भारत को क्रांति की जरुरत है?" (="Does India need revolution?") (Rabia "Does India need a spiritual revolution"), but all doubts disappear when Osho said in this talk: "भारत में क्रांति की जरूरत है, लेकिन कैसी क्रांति की? आध्यात्मिक क्रांति की!" (="There is a need of revolution in India, but what kind of revolution? Of the spiritual revolution!").--DhyanAntar 18:56, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Date confirmed by Osho Discourse Hindi List with dates (source document), there is as "क्या भारत में आध्यात्मिक क्रांति संभव हैं?" (kya bharat men adhyatmik kranti sambhav hain?)--DhyanAntar 04:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Other source Hindi series of talks with dates 2 (source document) lists it as "क्या भारत में आध्यात्मिक क्रांतिकी आवश्यकता है?" (Kya Bharat Men Adhyatmik Krantiki Avashyakta hai?) with date 21 Sep 1968 in Bombay.--DhyanAntar 06:17, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Talk in the "Hindi series of talks with dates (source document)" means the same talk as Rabia source does: their titles match. Hindi series of talks source often cuts ends of titles due small space in its table. "1" and "9" in devanagari ("१" and "९") can be confused easily, this is explanation why Rabia source gives "21". Moreover, 1st source is most accurate than Rabia and Osho Discourse Hindi List with dates sources, so we will use its data for Timeline.

These three dates in a row are also complemented by evening talks for the re-scheduled last four talks of Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or (संभोग से समाधि की ओर) (28/09/68-01/10/68), further unifying the three talks. This is at odds with Jagdish's location of Baroda for his ch 16, but ch numbers may have shifted there; we don't know for sure that his ch 16 = osho.com's ch 16. --DhyanAntar 11:36, 2 June 2020 (UTC) / doofus-9 08:58, 8 June 2020 (UTC)


Chapter 5 of Shailendra's PDF is called "Bharat Kis Or", it is the same chapter title as ch.21 of Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi Aur Ab Hai Bhikhari Jagat Ka (स्वर्ण पाखी था जो कभी और अब है भिखारी जगत का). But they are different.--DhyanAntar 04:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


Extracts from text (source - Shailendra's PDF):

ch.4: q/a.

ch.6: q/a, last talk in a place. Ends by "Therefore, educational institutions have a bigger job in the future than what they have done in the past. And what the teacher has done so far is more valuable in his future. But if I come again, I can talk to you in detail."

ch.7: it seems this is morning talk. "I just said in Bombay (reference to ?) that even a holy thing like Khadi and a beautiful hat like Gandhi can be made to burn Holi to India." In the end: "I will answer your questions tomorrow morning. (Reference to ?) Whatever questions you have in this regard, they will give you writing in the morning and today in the evening discussion (reference to ?), so that they can be talked about."

ch.8: q/a. Question: "Yesterday you said that until personal wealth does not increase, then we materialism…" (reference to ch.7?)

ch.9: event was in 1971. Osho indicated exact dates of two camps in beginning of 1972 (Sarvasar Upanishad (सर्वसार उपनिषद) and Kaivalya Upanishad (कैवल्य उपनिषद)). "And come to a camp. So little camp one see what I am doing for the revenge of the person. How is she able to activate this event. Currently there is a camp in Matheran, in January, between eight and sixteen. If it is made, then come into it. And if not then Mountabu is in a March, from twenty five March. Come to this camp, then come. Some seven hundred and eight hundred people come to a camp in this. Some twenty-five people are also coming from outside. And this person's ..."

ch.10: radio talk.

ch.11: q/a. "Many questions have come up regarding the last two discussions. (Reference to ?) Some friends have asked that India has been impoverished for hundreds of years, so Gandhism cannot be in this poverty, this poverty. Why is she poor for so many years?"

ch.12: morning talk. "...I want to talk to you about this relation this morning. Is India Religious?"

ch.14: q/a.

--DhyanAntar 05:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC)