Talk:Chal Hansa Us Des (चल हंसा उस देस)

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older material from the e-book

All info about dates, places and chapter titles comes from the e-book at Osho World and copycat sites. This particular e-book has more info than most. First, it presents a "real" TOC, presumably corresponding to chapter titles and page #s in real hard copy, perhaps a Rebel or even Rajneesh Foundation edition. G**gle Books supposedly has a preview of the Diamond edition, which often has a TOC but in this case, only error msg #500 came in when attempting to visit that source.

The "real" TOC is presented below left with its page #s and to the right, page #s of the e-book where data were found. As is often the case, date and place data appears to have come at the end of chapters. As it happens, they were spaced somewhat apart from the relevant text and grouped with the next chapter's titles, which led to some confusion at first but it worked out in the end. Data have been regrouped here for easier reading.

Hard copy TOC (theoretically) e-book data
[foreword (though not shown

in e-book version of TOC)]

p 1 उस देश की भूमि [foreword title]

p 2 Swami Chaitanya Keerti, Sampadak: Rajneesh Times International)

1. ध्यान है : अंतस-क्रांति 1 p 2 pahla pravachan ध्यान है : अंतस-क्रांति

p 14 Sadhana Shivir, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra [GJ], 4 Feb 1966

2. ध्यान का द्वारै : सरलता 17 p 14 dusra pravachan ध्यान का द्वारै : सरलता

p 24 Sadhana Shivir, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra [GJ], 6 Feb 1966

  p 24 dusra pravachan ध्यान का द्वारै : सरलता

p 35 Sadhana Shivir, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra [GJ], 6 Feb 1966
(in fact, chapter repeated in toto)

3. ध्यान मंदिर : मनुष्य का मंगल 31 p 35 tisra pravachan ध्यान मंदिर : मनुष्य का मंगल [Q & A]

p 45 Bombay 25 Feb 1970

4. ध्यान है : साक्षीभाव 45 p 45 chautha pravachan ध्यान है : साक्षी-भाव [Q & A]

p 63 Bombay 10 Mar 1970

5. ध्यान है : अक्रिया 69 p 63 panchvan pravachan ध्यान है अक्रिय

p 75 Bombay 15 Apr 1970

6. ध्यान है : भगवत्ता 85 p 75 chhathvan pravachan ध्यान है : भगवत [Q & A]

[no date given]

7. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति 101 p 85 satvan pravachan संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति [some Q & A]

p 97 Ghatkopar, Mumbai 9 Apr 1966, one talk

It will be noted that Keerti's position at the time possibly dates the compiling of this e-book to the Pune Two era, though it may not have been published till much later. Still, the whole thing is well laid out, with paragraph indents, TOC, etc, a "near-publication" quality, not counting the duplication of chap 2 -- oh, and the odd "spelling" of देश as देस. Oh well. -- doofus-9 (talk) 21:28, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

"Desh"-vs-"Des"

The 1980 Rajneesh Foundation edition was added on the basis of the recent publications list of Rahiman Dhaga Prem Ka (रहिमन धागा प्रेम का), published in July 1980. In that list, it was referred to as a "pocket edition".

And this new pubs list has turned out to be the final push to updating the title, from "Desh" to "Des"and देश to देस. The "odd spelling" mentioned above has turned out to have some historical significance. Notwithstanding that "Des/देस" was and is archaic, uncommon and "incorrect", it is also in the end apparently what was intended. It is not an aberration of later editions but has been there since at least 1980. Not that there is a "tradition" that has to be upheld, but that archaic usage had something to convey, had a point to make. It is on the cover, and it is in the new pubs list. And Osho's brother Shailendra has kindly supplied a lengthy explanation of a similar anomaly which can be read at Talk:Kaha Kahun Us Des Ki (कहा कहूं उस देस की). -- doofus-9 16:52, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Note that this reference to the 1980 RF edition does not include or deal with the detailed info found inside the book in late 2019. That info is presented below, in its own section. -- doofus-9 20:59, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

"Borrowed" chapters returned

And then, along came Kya Sove Tu Bavri (क्या सोवे तू बावरी). Because of some long-standing anomalies and misunderstandings, which are detailed on Bavri's Talk page, Chal Hansa seems to have had two more discourses than it "should" have, borrowed from Bavri. They have recently been "returned", ie removed from recent editions of Chal Hansa and restored on Bavri's side of the ledger. They are / were chapters 6 and 7, making Chal Hansa a five-chapter book, at least until we hear otherwise. -- doofus-9 08:37, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Mar 1989 edition

Re the above (see Bavri's Talk page), it can be seen that as of Mar 89, there were still seven chapters.

The back cover also has an item of interest, a quoted snippet pointing to the meaning / significance of the book's title, with idiomatic translation from Shailendra:

सुन्न में बाजै डुगडुगी बरवें पद गावैं (sunna mein baajai dugadugee barven pad gaavain)
चल हंसा उस देस कूं जो बहुर न आवै (chal hansa us des koon jo bahur na aavai)

Note that the first word, सुन्न, seems not to be right, but it in fact IS right, just modern typographical conventions have changed, so the way two "न"s combine is no longer a special character. Previously, that special character was easily mistaken for त्र​ (tra), a common ligature combining त and र.

O Swan (hansa, here = Atma), go (chal) to that country (us des, here = Moksha, Liberation) where the drum is being played with singing and from where one never returns (ie back to this world).
This poetic expression is pointing towards Anahad Nad, the unstruck sound, and is very similar to the zen symbol found in several anecdotes in Dang Dang Doko Dang, which raise the question / koan, how will you beat a drum if there is no drum?

-- doofus-9 18:04, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Dates "Corrected" in Timeline

Actually, only one date has been updated there, but the reasons involve two dates, those of the first two chapters, their relationship, and their part in the camp at Tulsishyam. The dates in the e-book above present a problem: If these two dates at this remote place are correct, what happened in between them? Either some discourses have got lost or something weirder has happened.

New info has surfaced that makes these dates even more awkward, and that is Dates and Places info for Sakshi Ka Bodh (साक्षी का बोध). Its claimed dates are also at this camp at Tulsishyam, consisting of three talks on Feb 4 and one on the 5th. This clearly doesn't fit with the 4th and 6th for Chal Hansa, so something is wrong. Sure, some of the Sakshi talks could be wrong, but the simplest correction, one that can make it all work with the least fiddling, would be to change Chal Hansa's first talk to Feb 5th. This would make everything fit much better, so that has been done.

And that small change has the additional benefit of dealing with the awkward "missing discourses" problem that Chal Hansa always had even before Sakshi came along. Is that a win-win? -- doofus-9 08:46, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

1980 RF edition

This edition has now been looked at, thanks to DhyanAntar's attentive page gathering, and it seems to confirm all the old data of the e-book up top, where we started our epic Chal Hansa journey. This has to be taken as the solidest info so far in this tricky case. Though it may be wrong, we cannot second-guess this primary source info unless something more compelling comes along.

So this leaves us with -- considering only the Tulsishyam talks -- Chal Hansa having two talks on Feb 4 & 6 and Sakshi three talks on Feb 4 and one on Feb 5. Considering how unbalanced this all is, with a total of four talks on Feb 4 and only one on the 5th and one on the 6th, it seems likely that the Sakshi dating information is not entirely correct, that one or two of them could move to the 5th or whatever. The principle of least interference with the sources would have us move only one of them, so probably that's what should happen. And any ideas about "normal" camp structure need not apply. -- doofus-9 20:59, 28 December 2019 (UTC)