View source for Talk:Chal Hansa Us Des (चल हंसा उस देस)

===Current Understanding===
{| class="wikitable"
! event !! audio,<br>OshoWorld !! audio,<br>Osho.com !! 1980 book ed. !! 1989 book ed. '''(*1)''' !! Shailendra's PDF !! Oshoworld e-book !! Osho.com library !! Oshoganga '''(*2)''' !! Dates & Places
|-
| [[Sakshi Ka Bodh ~ 02]] || ''Sakshi Ki Sadhana'' #10<br>incomplete<br>from 48:42 follows a part from another talk ''[[Sukh Aur Shanti (सुख और शांति)|Sukh Aur Shanti]]'' ch.3 || ''Sakshi Ka Bodh'' 2. साक्षीभाव '''(*3''')<br>incomplete || 1. ध्यान है अंतस्-क्रांति<br>more incomplete than audio || 1. ध्यान है : अंतस-क्रांति '''(*1)''' || 
* 1. ध्यान हैः अंतस-क्रांति<br>more incomplete than audio<br>med.camp, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra, 4 Feb 1966
* ''Sakshi Ki Sadhana'' 10. साक्षीभाव<br>incomplete<br>from p.130 follows a part from another talk ''[[Sukh Aur Shanti (सुख और शांति)|Sukh Aur Shanti]]'' ch.3 
|| 1. ध्यान है : अंतस-क्रांति<br>more incomplete than audio<br>date the same as in Shailendra's PDF || ''Sakshi Ka Bodh'' 2. साक्षीभाव<br>incomplete || 
* 1. ध्‍यान है: अंतस—क्रांति<br>more incomplete than audio<br>25 Feb 1970, Bombay '''(*2)'''
* ''Sakshi Ki Sadhana'' 10. (no title)<br>incomplete<br>a part from another talk ''[[Sukh Aur Shanti (सुख और शांति)|Sukh Aur Shanti]]'' ch.3 
|| 4 Feb 1966 om [[Glossary#am om pm xm|**]], [[wikipedia:Tulsishyam | Tulsishyam]], [[Meditation Camps|meditation camp]]
|-
| [[Jeevan Geet ~ 04]] || ''Sakshi Ki Sadhana'' #13<br>missing beginning '''(*4)''' || ''Jeevan Geet'' 4. ध्यान का द्वार: सरलता<br>missing beginning '''(*4)''' || 2. सरलता है द्वार ध्यान का<br>missing beginning '''(*4)''' || 2. ध्यान का द्वार : सरलता '''(*1)''' || 
* 2. ध्यान का द्वारः सरलता (missing beginning) '''(*4)'''<br>med.camp, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra, 6 Feb 1966 '''(*5)'''
* ''Sakshi Ki Sadhana'' 13. ध्यान का द्वार : सरलता<br>missing beginning '''(*4)'''
|| 2. ध्यान का द्वार : सरलता '''(*6)'''<br>missing beginning '''(*4)'''<br>date the same as in Shailendra's PDF || ''Jeevan Geet'' 4. ध्यान का द्वार: सरलता<br>(complete) || 
* 2. ध्यान का द्वार : सरलता<br>(missing beginning) '''(*2)(*4)'''<br>med.camp, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra, 4 Feb 1966
* ''Sakshi Ki Sadhana'' 13. (no title)<br>missing beginning '''(*4)'''
|| 28 Oct 1966 pm, Bhonsale Military School, [[wikipedia:Nashik | Nashik]], [[Meditation Camps|meditation camp]]
|-
| [[Anant Ki Pukar ~ 11]] || ''Anant Ki Pukar'' #11 || ''Anant Ki Pukar'' 11. ध्यान-केंद्र: मनुष्य का मंगल || 3. ध्यान मंदिर मनुष्य का मंगल<br>missing first 1,5 sentences || 3. ध्यान मंदिर : मनुष्य का मंगल '''(*1)''' || 
* 3. ध्यान मंदिरः मनुष्य का मंगल<br>missing first 1,5 sentences<br>Bombay, 5 Feb 1970 '''(*7)'''
* ''Anant Ki Pukar'' 11. ध्यान-केंद्रः मनुष्य का मंगल 
|| 3. ध्यान मंदिर : मनुष्य का मंगल<br>missing first 1,5 sentences<br>Bombay, 25 Feb 1970 || ''Anant Ki Pukar'' 11. ध्यान-केंद्र: मनुष्य का मंगल || 
* 3. ध्यान मंदिर है: मनुष्‍य का मंगल<br>missing first 1,5 sentences<br>med.camp, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra, 6 Feb 1966 '''(*2)'''
* ''Anant Ki Pukar'' 11. ध्यान-केंद्र: मनुष्य का मंगल 
|| 25 Feb 1970 am, [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]] '''(*7)'''
|-
| [[Vyast Jeevan Mein Ishwar Ki Khoj ~ 04]] || ''Vysat Jeevan Main Ishwar Ki Khoj'' #4<br>last 10 seconds is a part of another talk || ''Vyast Jeevan Mein Ishwar Ki Khoj'' 4. साक्षी हो जाना ध्यान है || 4. ध्यान है साक्षीभाव<br>end incomplete || 4. ध्यान है : साक्षीभाव '''(*1)''' || 
* 4. ध्यान हैः साक्षी-भाव<br>end incomplete<br>Bombay, 10 Mar 1970
* ''Vyast Jeevan Mein Ishwar Ki Khoj'' 4. साक्षी हो जाना ध्यान है 
|| 4. ध्यान है : साक्षी-भाव<br>end incomplete<br>date the same as in Shailendra's PDF ||  || 4. ध्यान है : साक्षी—भाव<br>end incomplete<br>Bombay, 25 Feb 1970 '''(*2)''' || 10 Mar 1970 om [[Glossary#am om pm xm|**]], [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|-
| [[Main Kaun Hun (discourses) ~ 07]] || ''Main Kaun Hun'' #7 || ''Main Kaun Hun'' 7. शक्ति का तूफान || 5. ध्यान है अक्रिया || 5. ध्यान है : अक्रिया '''(*1)''' || 
* 5. ध्यान हैः अक्रिया<br>Bombay, 15 Apr 1970
* ''Main Kaun Hun'' 7. शक्ति का तूफान 
|| 5. ध्यान है अक्रिया<br>date the same as in Shailendra's PDF || ''Main Kaun Hun'' 7. श्वास: ध्यान का द्वार || 5. ध्यान है अक्रिया<br>Bombay, 10 Mar 1970 '''(*2)''' || 15 Apr 1970 am, Palm Beach, [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|-
| [[Yuvak Aur Yaun ~ 01]] || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur'' #6 || ''Yuvak Aur Yaun'' 1. यौन ः जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम || 6. ध्यान है भगवत्ता<br>incomplete '''(*8)''' || 6. ध्यान है : भगवत्ता '''(*1)''' || 
* 6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता<br>incomplete '''(*8)'''<br>no date stated
* ''Kya Sove Tu Bavri'' 6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता<br>incomplete '''(*8)'''
* ''Yuvak Aur Yaun'' 1. यौन : जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम<br>(complete)
|| 6. ध्यान है : भगवत्ता<br>incomplete '''(*8)'''<br>no date stated || ''Yuvak Aur Yaun'' 1. यौनः जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम || 
* 6. ध्यान है : भगवत्ता<br>incomplete '''(*8)'''<br>Bombay, 15 Apr 1970 '''(*2)'''
* ''Kya Sove Tu Bavri'' 6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता<br>incomplete '''(*8)'''
|| date unknown, [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|-
| [[Kya Sove Tu Bavri ~ 05]] || ''Kya Sove Tu Bavri'' #4 from 1:12:04<br>(first seconds can be from other talk)<br>last 16 sec is a part of other talk || ''Kya Sove Tu Bavri'' 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति || 7. संन्यास और अंतस्-क्रांति<br>missing last question || 7. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति '''(*1)''' || 
* 7. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति<br>missing last question<br>Ghatkopar, Bombay, 9 Apr, 1966
* ''Kya Sove Tu Bavri'' 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति<br>missing last question 
|| 7. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति<br>missing last question<br>date the same as in Shailendra's PDF || ''Kya Sove Tu Bavri'' 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति || 
* 7. संन्यास और अंतस—क्रांति<br>missing last question<br>Ghatkopar, Bombay, 9 Apr, 1966
* ''Kya Sove Tu Bavri'' 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति<br>missing last question 
|| 9 Apr 1966, Ghatkopar, [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|}

;Notes
:(*1) We had not possibility to check text of 1989 ed.
:(*2) Dates and places of first 6 chapters from Oshoganga are mixed up.
:(*3) Two first audios of ''Sakshi Ka Bodh'' series on Osho.com combined into one, two titles given for each audio.
:(*4) These sources have incomplete text, i.e. first 7,5 paragraphs are missing. ''Chal Hansa Us Des'' 1980 ed. has incorrect date (Tulsishyam, Saurashtra, 6 Feb 1966).
:(*5) Date is incorrect. See [[Talk:Jeevan Geet (जीवन गीत)]].
:(*6) This chapter repeated twice: from p.14 and from p.24.
:(*7) "5 Feb 1970" seems incorrect date due incomplete copy of data. "25 Feb 1970" is complete date, confirmed by OW e-book and Jagdish (see [[Talk:Anant Ki Pukar (अनंत की पुकार)]]).
:(*8) These sources have incomplete text of the event: it is q.2-4 (of 5) of the event, i.e. middle part.

===older material from the e-book===

All info about dates, places and chapter titles comes from the e-book at Osho World and copycat sites. This particular e-book has more info than most. First, it presents a "real" TOC, presumably corresponding to chapter titles and page #s in real hard copy, perhaps a Rebel or even Rajneesh Foundation edition. G**gle Books supposedly has a preview of the Diamond edition, which often has a TOC but in this case, only error msg #500 came in when attempting to visit that source.

The "real" TOC is presented below left with its page #s and to the right, page #s of the e-book where data were found. As is often the case, date and place data appears to have come at the end of chapters. As it happens, they were spaced somewhat apart from the relevant text and grouped with the next chapter's titles, which led to some confusion at first but it worked out in the end. Data have been regrouped here for easier reading.

{| class="wikitable"
|-
| Hard copy TOC (theoretically)|| e-book data
|-
| [foreword (though not shown <br>
in e-book version of TOC)]
|| p 1 उस देश की भूमि [foreword title]<br> 
p 2 [[Sw Chaitanya Keerti|Swami Chaitanya Keerti]], Sampadak: Rajneesh Times International)
|-
| 1. ध्यान है : अंतस-क्रांति 1 || p 2 pahla pravachan ध्यान है : अंतस-क्रांति <br>
p 14 Sadhana Shivir, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra [GJ], 4 Feb 1966
|-
| 2. ध्यान का द्वार : सरलता 17 || p 14 dusra pravachan ध्यान का द्वार : सरलता <br>
p 24 Sadhana Shivir, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra [GJ], 6 Feb 1966
|-
| &nbsp; || p 24 dusra pravachan ध्यान का द्वार : सरलता <br>
p 35 Sadhana Shivir, Tulsishyam, Saurashtra [GJ], 6 Feb 1966 <br>
(in fact, chapter repeated in toto)
|-
| 3. ध्यान मंदिर : मनुष्य का मंगल 31 || p 35 tisra pravachan ध्यान मंदिर : मनुष्य का मंगल [Q & A] <br>
p 45 Bombay 25 Feb 1970
|-
| 4. ध्यान है : साक्षीभाव 45 || p 45 chautha pravachan ध्यान है : साक्षी-भाव [Q & A] <br>
p 63 Bombay 10 Mar 1970
|-
| 5. ध्यान है : अक्रिया 69 || p 63 panchvan pravachan ध्यान है अक्रिय <br>
p 75 Bombay 15 Apr 1970
|-
| 6. ध्यान है : भगवत्ता 85 || p 75 chhathvan pravachan ध्यान है : भगवत्ता [Q & A] <br>
[no date given]
|-
| 7. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति 101 || p 85 satvan pravachan संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति [some Q & A]<br>
p 97 Ghatkopar, Mumbai 9 Apr 1966, one talk
|}

It will be noted that Keerti's position at the time possibly dates the compiling of this e-book to the Pune Two era, though it may not have been published till much later. Still, the whole thing is well laid out, with paragraph indents, TOC, etc, a "near-publication" quality, not counting the duplication of chap 2 -- oh, and the odd "spelling" of देश as देस. Oh well. -- [[User:Sarlo|doofus-9]] ([[User talk:Sarlo|talk]]) 21:28, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
----
Ch.4 looks as informal talk, mentioned by [[Hindi series of talks with dates (source document)]]. It is from ''[[Vyast Jeevan Mein Ishwar Ki Khoj (व्यस्त जीवन में ईश्वर की खोज)]]'' series, which can be whole series dedicated to answers to seekers.--DhyanAntar 04:37, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

==="Desh"-vs-"Des"===

The 1980 Rajneesh Foundation edition was added on the basis of the [[media:Rahiman Dhaga 1980 new-pubs-list.jpg|recent publications list]] of ''[[Rahiman Dhaga Prem Ka (रहिमन धागा प्रेम का)]]'', published in July 1980. In that list, it was referred to as a "pocket edition". 

And this new pubs list has turned out to be the final push to updating the title, from "Desh" to "Des"and देश to देस. The "odd spelling" mentioned above has turned out to have some historical significance. Notwithstanding that "Des/देस" was and is archaic, uncommon and "incorrect", it is also in the end apparently what was intended. It is not an aberration of later editions but has been there since at least 1980. Not that there is a "tradition" that has to be upheld, but that archaic usage had something to convey, had a point to make. It is on the cover, and it is in the new pubs list. And Osho's brother [[Sw Shailendra Saraswati|Shailendra]] has kindly supplied a lengthy explanation of a similar anomaly which can be read at [[Talk:Kaha Kahun Us Des Ki (कहा कहूं उस देस की)]]. -- doofus-9 16:52, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
:<small>Note that this reference to the 1980 RF edition does not include or deal with the detailed info found inside the book in late 2019. That info is presented below, in its own section. -- doofus-9 20:59, 28 December 2019 (UTC)</small>

==="Borrowed" chapters returned===

And then, along came ''[[Kya Sove Tu Bavri (क्या सोवे तू बावरी)]]''. Because of some long-standing anomalies and misunderstandings, which are detailed on ''Bavri's'' Talk page, ''Chal Hansa'' seems to have had two more discourses than it "should" have, borrowed from ''Bavri''. They have recently been "returned", ie removed from recent editions of ''Chal Hansa'' and restored on ''Bavri's'' side of the ledger. They are / were chapters 6 and 7, making ''Chal Hansa'' a five-chapter book, at least until we hear otherwise. -- doofus-9 08:37, 15 November 2017 (UTC) 

===Mar 1989 edition===

Re the above (see ''Bavri's'' Talk page), it can be seen that as of Mar 89, there were still seven chapters. 

The back cover also has an item of interest, a quoted snippet pointing to the meaning / significance of the book's title, with idiomatic translation from Shailendra:

:सुन्न में बाजै डुगडुगी बरवें पद गावैं (sunna mein baajai dugadugee barven pad gaavain) 
:चल हंसा उस देस कूं जो बहुर न आवै (chal hansa us des koon jo bahur na aavai) 

Note that the first word, सुन्न, seems not to be right, but it in fact IS right, just modern typographical conventions have changed, so the way two "न"s combine is no longer a special character. Previously, that special character was easily mistaken for त्र (tra), a common ligature combining त and र.

:O Swan (hansa, here = Atma), go (chal) to that country (us des, here = Moksha, Liberation) where the drum is being played with singing and from where one never returns (ie back to this world).
:This poetic expression is pointing towards Anahad Nad, the unstruck sound, and is very similar to the zen symbol found in several anecdotes in ''[[Dang Dang Doko Dang]]'', which raise the question / koan, how will you beat a drum if there is no drum? 
-- doofus-9 18:04, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

===Dates "Corrected" in Timeline===

Actually, only one date has been updated there, but the reasons involve two dates, those of the first two chapters, their relationship, and their part in the camp at Tulsishyam. The dates in the e-book above present a problem: If these two dates at this remote place are correct, what happened in between them? Either some discourses have got lost or something weirder has happened.

New info has surfaced that makes these dates even more awkward, and that is Dates and Places info for ''[[Sakshi Ka Bodh (साक्षी का बोध)]]''. Its claimed dates are also at this camp at Tulsishyam, consisting of three talks on Feb 4 and one on the 5th. This clearly doesn't fit with the 4th and 6th for ''Chal Hansa'', so something is wrong. Sure, some of the ''Sakshi'' talks could be wrong, but the simplest correction, one that can make it all work with the least fiddling, would be to change ''Chal Hansa's'' first talk to Feb 5th. This would make everything fit much better, so that has been done. 

And that small change has the additional benefit of dealing with the awkward "missing discourses" problem that ''Chal Hansa'' always had even before ''Sakshi'' came along. Is that a win-win? -- doofus-9 08:46, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

===1980 RF edition===

This edition has now been looked at, thanks to DhyanAntar's attentive page gathering, and it seems to confirm all the old data of the e-book up top, where we started our epic ''Chal Hansa'' journey. This has to be taken as the solidest info so far in this tricky case. Though it may be wrong, we cannot second-guess this primary source info unless something more compelling comes along. 

So this leaves us with -- considering only the Tulsishyam talks -- ''Chal Hansa'' having two talks on Feb 4 & 6 and ''Sakshi'' three talks on Feb 4 and one on Feb 5. Considering how unbalanced this all is, with a total of four talks on Feb 4 and only one on the 5th and one on the 6th, it seems likely that the ''Sakshi'' dating information is not entirely correct, that one or two of them could move to the 5th or whatever. The principle of least interference with the sources would have us move only one of them, so probably that's what should happen. And any ideas about "normal" camp structure need not apply. -- doofus-9 20:59, 28 December 2019 (UTC)