Talk:Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin (चित चकमक लागै नहीं)

From The Sannyas Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld		 audio,
Osho.com (*1)		 2012 book edition (*2) Shailendra's PDF Oshoganga Osho.com library Dates & Places
Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin ~ 01 #1 1. जीवन की खोज 1. जीवन की खोज 1. जीवन की खोज 1. जीवन की खोज 1. जीवन की खोज 19 Nov 1967 pm, Malad, Bombay, meditation camp
Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin ~ 02 #2 2. अविचार 2. अविचार 2. अविचार 2. अविचार 2. अविचार 20 Nov 1967 am, Malad, Bombay, meditation camp
Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin ~ 03 #3
missing meditation part		 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति
missing meditation part		 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति (p.25-36)
missing meditation part		 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति (first part)
missing meditation part		 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति (web-pages 1-11)
missing meditation part		 20 Nov 1967 pm, Malad, Bombay, meditation camp
(can be last part of above event) (*3) 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति (p.36-37) (*3) 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति (second part) (*3) 3. स्वतंत्रता और आत्म-क्रांति (web-pages 11-13) (*3)
Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin ~ 04 #4
beginning incomplete a little		 4. विचार
beginning incomplete a little		 4. विचार 4. विचार 4. विचार 4. विचार 21 Nov 1967 am, Malad, Bombay, meditation camp
Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin ~ 05 #5
(1 min of silence in the end)
incomplete		 5. विचार: एक आत्मानुभूति
"sound dropout, end missing"		 5. विचार: एक आत्मानुभूति 5. विचारः एक आत्मानुभूति
incomplete		 5. विचारः एक आत्मानुभूति
incomplete		 5. विचारः एक आत्मानुभूति
incomplete		 21 Nov 1967 pm, Malad, Bombay, meditation camp
Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin ~ 06 #6 6. निर्विचार 6. निर्विचार 6. निर्विचार 6. निर्विचार 6. निर्विचार 22 Nov 1967 am, Malad, Bombay, meditation camp
Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin ~ 07 (*4) 22 Nov 1967 pm, Malad, Bombay, meditation camp
Notes
(*1) Audios of Khajana collection don't have intros.
(*2) Comparing of this edition based on chapter titles only.
(*3) This part is missing on audio. It is said in Shailendra's PDF as well as in Oshoganga that it was printed in old book as continuation of chapter 3 and note continues: "not last part of ch.3". Osho.com library also includes this part of last part of ch.3 but left out that note. Almost dozen of paragraphs of this part about meditation. It is possible this part is last part of ch.3.
(*4) This event with q/a is missing, neither audio nor text is available.

Deliberations

The 2012 edition is also attributed to Rebel.
Some interner shops as well as Rebel Publisher Book Price list 2018.11 state Paperback with the same ISBN.--DhyanAntar 04:29, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

And about transliteration: It seems to be quite a common thing that an ै form (the "ai" vowel inflection on whatever consonant) is getting transliterated as "e". It seems to happen only on verb endings (i could be wrong) but not always, and especially not for है, hai, the commonest verb, good old "is." And so it is here, with लागै -- indisputably on the cover and in virtually all the DN text representations around the net -- being rendered consistently among booksellers as Lage rather than Lagai, as it "should" be. I will continue to note this phenom but wonder if transliterating conventions are changing as we write. G**gle Translate uses the old way, and, going the other way, so does Lexilogos' virtual DN keyboard (eg type "lage" and you get लगे). -- Sarlo (talk) 10:27, 24 June 2014 (PDT)

We have some text to help us with the dates with Chit Chakmak. It's not precise by any means but fwiw nudges it earlier ... First, the language of Osho's introduction, his salutation, "मेरे प्रिय आत्मन्", makes it 1970 or earlier, since he stopped using this and similar greetings around his birthday in 1970.

And we have the publicity sent out by OIF to promote Chit Chakmak's translation, The Independent Mind, which refers to camps:

In his early days of teaching Osho ran meditation camps in which he introduced people into meditation, and his morning and evening talks created the framework of understanding for this work. The Independent Mind is a fascinating record of one of these camps – in a short period of three days Osho introduces his participants to an understanding that our minds are running on malware programs – and he introduces meditation as an antivirus to clean our minds of the conditionings and indoctrinations that are preventing us from realizing our full potential and to be happy.

Again, in Osho's words, "In the coming three days, I will tell you a little bit about life's search", and "In these three days, I will talk to you on three things in the morning and answer your questions on the evening". The source for "Mumbai" seems to be the front flap of the translation. -- doofus-9 16:09, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

About 7th talk Shailendra says:

"In the end of Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin #6 Osho says- इस संबंध में जो कुछ पूछने को हो, वह मैं संध्या आपसे बात करूंगा। (If you have anything to ask regarding this subject, I will talk about it in the evening).
This proves there must be one more chapter after this to complete the series. There are mostly 7 talks from 3 days camp. First one--welcome and introduction in night, then twice daily for next 3 days."--DhyanAntar 15:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Interesting! Jagdish has sent info regarding dates and places for Chit Chakmak, but he only mentions six talks. Curiously, there appear to be some crossed wires re AM and PM for the first five talks, making the order apparently 1-3-2-5-4-6, but likely those are little errors, almost like typos. As well, we have a another indication regarding the AM/PM thingie: the two talks noted as Q&A are #3 and #5, which would fit Osho's description, "In these three days, I will talk to you on three things in the morning and answer your questions on the evening". And further supports the idea that there is a missing #7, also with Q&A.

And Mumbai is it! We do have to wonder about Jeevan Ki Khoj, since there is no indication anywhere else that these two series have anything to do with each other. Oh well! It can stay as a FWIW. -- doofus-9 09:23, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

1. AM 19/11/1967 -- Jeevan Ki Khoj -- Malad, Mumbai
2. PM 20/11/1967 -- Jeevan Ki Khoj -- Malad, Mumbai
3. AM 20/11/1967 -- Jeevan Ki Khoj -- Q&A Malad, Mumbai
4. PM 21/11/1967 -- Jeevan Ki Khoj -- Malad, Mumbai
5. AM 21/11/1967 -- Jeevan Ki Khoj -- Q&A Malad, Mumbai
6. AM 22/11/1967 -- Jeevan Ki Khoj -- Malad, Mumbai

Earlier Shailendra mentioned about 7th and 8th. Now it is clear source of confusion: they appeared in Moulik Kranti (मौलिक क्रान्ति) as ch.7-8 of part I, which titled Chit Chakmak Lage Nahin. Relation with real Chit is unlikely.--DhyanAntar 05:48, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Osho starts talk in ch.7 of Moulik about religion. Our Chit talk should be evening last talk of format q/a. Moulik 7th talk (it is event Jeevan Satya Ki Khoj ~ 04) doesn't have clue in end about last talk of 3 day series. Here is conclusion: it is not Chit's 7th talk.--DhyanAntar 07:13, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Extracts from text (source is rough translation of Shailendra's PDF):

ch.1: first evening talk, starts by "I will tell you a little thing about the discovery of life in the coming three days. Before I say anything about the discovery of life from tomorrow morning, it is necessary to say initially that what we perceive as life, there is no reason to understand it as life."
in the end: "These thoughts, these questions should arise in your mind, very few questions arise in our minds. Questions do not arise and when questions do not arise and curiosity does not arise then how will search be born? And if there is no desire for discovery then how will labor be in that direction So he will talk to you slowly in these three days. So much of this tonight, sleep with death, thinking that she will sleep with you. And keep him in front of you, keep him with you, keep him with him, who keeps death with him, makes death a companion, makes friends, remember that it is not too late that God will be with him... I will start the discussion about the camp tomorrow morning, for the role that if any practice can be born in your mind then it can happen only if you fulfill this first condition of being a seeker. Do not turn away from death, look into his eyes. Take him close, sleep with him today."

ch.2: morning talk, most of talk about independed mind. It starts by "Last night, I told you a few things about death. (Reference to ch.1.) In search of life can be started from death itself. Only those who want to know and attain life can be successful and capable… who start the search with the fact of death... So yesterday, I proposed to you a little bit about preliminarily death. And pleaded that death should not be kept back and take it in front. Do not avoid death, face it. Do not run away from death, do not forget it, only your continuous memory can be helpful."
"In these three days I will discuss three things with you in the morning and in evening will answer your questions. In the context of the discussion on death this morning, I want to tell you two things on the same tree. There will be a tree and all three words are chosen for discussion of these three days. Today I will discuss ideas, tomorrow on thoughts, day after tomorrow."
"I request that you give up on faith and give birth to the idea. A state of trust is a state of indiscretion."
"I will complete the morning discussion with a short story."
"And there are many questions, I will talk about them tomorrow and the day after."

ch.3: q/a, starts by "Many questions have come up here. More questions were related to what I requested for independent thought in the morning discussion." (Reference to ch.2.)

ch.4: starts by "State of the past and thoughts. Man generally lives in thoughtlessness. One is the subordination of lusts. And secondly reverence and trust. Man is paratantra at the bottom of the body and also at the bottom of the mind. It is not possible to be independent at the bottom of the body, but it is possible to be independent at the bottom of the mind. I told you a few things in this regard yesterday. (Reference to ch.3.) How can a man be independent at the bottom of the mind. How thoughts can be born within him. I will talk to you today in that regard. If the idea is not born, then there can be neither any realization nor creation of anything in the life of man..."
"I told you two sutras to search for the idea. First, let the memory become silent. Avoid memory, memory is dangerous... Secondly, ask questions, do not rush for answers. Sow the question. Put the seed of question in life. Let the question revolve there, let it resonate. Let the question be intense there. Let the question be agitated there. Let it move. And do not rush to reply... These two things I have said to you for the idea's birth. Avoid thoughtlessness, avoid belief, avoid memory and constantly try to awaken the thought. So one day the idea is definitely born."
in the end: "These are some of the things I said to you for consideration. I will talk to you tomorrow for an idea. Thoughtless thoughts and thoughtlessness in these three stairs. How can the life truth be found in these three stairs? I am discussing this with you."

ch.5: q/a, meditation at the end. Starts by "The first thing I said in the morning regarding the idea." (Reference to ch.4.)

ch.6: starts by "In the last two days, we have considered two conditions of the human mind. On the first day, I said a little about the idea of ​​indiscretion. Indiscretion is born of faith and reverence. And those who lock themselves in thought are deprived of knowing the truth of life. (Reference to ch.2.) We thought about how the idea should be born yesterday. (Reference to ch.4.) Only his mind is able to give thought to ideas which are free from beliefs, devotions and beliefs. Those who dare so much that they enable themselves to break the blind assumptions given by traditions and societies, only that idea is born within them; Which brings freedom and speeds in the direction of truth."

in the end: "Whatever I have to ask in this regard, I will talk to you in the evening." (Reference to missing following talk.)

Above chapters are in chronological order.--DhyanAntar 06:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Tape labels (of first 6 events) confirm the current dates and gives place Bombay. Their durations match.--DhyanAntar 14:29, 22 September 2022 (UTC)


Retrieved from "https://www.sannyas.wiki//index.php?title=Talk:Chit_Chakmak_Lage_Nahin_(चित_चकमक_लागै_नहीं)&oldid=221212"