Talk:Ek Naya Dwar (एक नया द्वार)
|2016 book ed. (*1)||Shailendra's PDF||Osho.com library||Oshoganga||Dates & Places|
|Ek Naya Dwar ~ 01||#1||1. दूसरों के विचार और ज्ञान से मुक्ति||1. दूसरों के विचार और ज्ञान से मुक्ति||1. दूसरों के विचार और ज्ञान से मुक्ति||1. दूसरों के विचार और ज्ञान से मुक्ति||1. दूसरों के विचार और ज्ञान से मुक्ति||5 May 1967 pm, Rajwada, Indore (MP)|
|Ek Naya Dwar ~ 02||#2
it seems incomplete
|2. विश्वास और धारणाएं हमारे बंधन
it seems incomplete
|2. विश्वास और धारणाएं हमारे बंधन||2. विश्वास और धारणाएं--हमारे बंधन
it seems incomplete
|2. विश्वास और धारणाएं हमारे बंधन
end incomplete (at least 2 pages of PDF page format in Shailendra's PDF)
|2. विश्वास और धारणाएं हमारे बंधन
it seems incomplete
|6 May 1967 am, Rajwada, Indore (MP)|
|Ek Naya Dwar ~ 03||3. not available||3. चित्त की सरलता||3. चित्त की सरलता||3. चित्त की सरलता||6 May 1967 pm, Rajwada, Indore (MP) (*2)|
|Ek Naya Dwar ~ 04||4. not available||4. पक्षपातों से मुक्त मन||4. पक्षपातों से मुक्त मन||4. पक्षपातों से मुक्त मन||7 May 1967 am, Rajwada, Indore (MP) (*2)|
|Ek Naya Dwar ~ 05||5. not available||5. सजग चेतना और शांत चित्त||5. सजग चेतना और शांत चित्त||5. सजग चेतना और शांत चित्त||8 May 1967 am, Geetagyan Mandir, Indore (MP) (*3)|
|Man Ka Darpan ~ 01||#3||Man Ka Darpan 1. महत्वाकांक्षा||Man Ka Darpan 1. एक नया द्वार||Man Ka Darpan 1. महत्वाकांक्षा||Man Ka Darpan 1. एक नया द्वार||7 May 1967 pm?, Lions Club, Indore (MP)? (*4)|
|Man Ka Darpan ~ 02||#4||Man Ka Darpan 2. मैं कौन हूं?||Man Ka Darpan 2. स्वयं को जानना सरलता है||Man Ka Darpan 2. मैं कौन हूं?||Man Ka Darpan 2. स्वयं को जानना सरलता है||1967?|
|Man Ka Darpan ~ 03||#5||Man Ka Darpan 3. असंग की खोज||Man Ka Darpan 3. असंग की खोज||Man Ka Darpan 3. असंग की खोज||Man Ka Darpan 3. असंग की खोज||1967?, Indore (MP) (*5)|
(*1) We had no text in order to compare it with other sources.
(*2) Sources of dates and places are Shailendra's PDF and Oshoganga.
(*3) This talk was given in Geetagyan Mandir, Indore according to the Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction#B Sheets (B-1 to B-13V) and as it seems quotes are close to text of the chapter (see below). Other sources, Shailendra's PDF and Oshoganga, agree on date and Indore but stated the place Lions Club, i.e. same place as talk on previous night (see Osho Timeline 1967). However Osho's Appointment Diary 1967-1970 (translated source document) clarifies that there was a talk in the evening of 7 May in Lions Club, then in Geetagyan Mandir on next morning.
(*5) About the place see Talk:Man Ka Darpan (मन का दर्पण).
Title means A New Door. Of the five audio discourses available, only two have titles, per below. Osho.com only offers the two with titles, perhaps because of sound quality issues, and indicates that the titled ones are #4 & 5. E-book versions were not investigated, being found only on non-Osho-related sites. -- Sarlo (talk) 09:07, 18 May 2014 (PDT)
- प्रवचन (TOC):
- 4? दूसरों के विचार और ज्ञान से मुक्ति
- 5? विश्वास और धारणाएं हमारे बंधन
Osho.com has updated its audiobook info for Dwar. We now have five discourse titles but now the two that are available are numbered one and two, if it matters. They are the same titles. -- doofus-9 15:31, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- 1. दूसरों के विचार और ज्ञान से मुक्ति
- 2. विश्वास और धारणाएं हमारे बंधन
- 3. चित्त की सरलता
- 4. पक्षपातों से मुक्त मन
- 5. सजग चेतना और शांत चित्त
These titles have been duly compared with the titles from the 2016 OMI contents image and it is no great surprise that they are very similar, the only differences being सरलत corrected to सरलता (probably my transcription error earlier) and two instances of चित्त being unable to replicate ligatures created in the book's typesetting / printing processes. See Devanagari Ligatures for more on that. The last word in the title (द्वार) is another ligature failure, for that matter.
Some or most of the talks were likely given in 1967, that being presumed on the basis of OIF's copyright claim, see the pub info page. Possibly some were given later than that as well. -- doofus-9 07:23, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
basis for dates?
So how do we know what discourses are on what dates? I have not seen anything explicit in the wiki that connects dates in May 1967 with particular discourses, except the 1967 Timeline. But where did that info come from? How do we know the talks, or at least some of them, were in Indore? OIF's copyright claim of 1967 seems to put some, most or all of them in 1967, but when and where more precisely?
Currently, per the Timeline, #3-5 are on 6-8 May. It may be that some of END's talks were on those dates, but why #3, 4 and 5? I saw mention in Talk:Amrit Dwar (अमृत द्वार) of "data from Shailendra's e-book for Naya Dwar". Is this accessible? Can it be put here?
There is new info re talks in Indore in May 1967 at Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction. It is tempting to accept this as applicable to END, as the dates nearly coincide, though the title is not mentioned. In fact, if there is a way to substantiate END's claim to these dates, i would propose to put #1 and #2 in here as well. #1 and #2 currently have no dates at all, and in light of the very specific claims being made for #3-5, it seems fairly arbitrary to leave out 1 and 2. And there is room in these days for all five talks of this series, more than enough room. Too much room one might even say, since it is not clear how exactly the five talks might be apportioned. The available days are described below, with "Sheet B-1" and "Sheet B2R" referring to particular source pages in Manuscripts ~ Reports):
|Dates||Event Description and Notes|
|5 - 8 May||Sheet B-1 -- Indore, daily addressed a large public gathering in the courtyard of Rajwada|
|7 May||Evening, Addressed members of Lions Clubs Indore.|
|8 May am||Sheet B-2R -- Indore, addressed a huge public gathering at Geetagyan Mandir|
This account could easily be of four talks in Rajwada, on May 5, 6, 7 and 8, with no am or pm specified, plus May 7 pm at the Lions club and May 8 am at Geetagyan Mandir. And still have room for a second talk on May 6, with a second talk on May 5 unlikely but possible. So how to divide these days and nights up into five talks?
And in passing we should note that the specifics of the above descriptions do not align perfectly with those in the Timeline. The Timeline has the Lions Club talk on May 8 am and doesn't mention Geetagyan Mandir or Rajwada. -- doofus-9 08:06, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
First entry in above table contains two 'quotes' which found in ch.1 (in Shailendra's PDF).
Resort library Hindi booklist (source document): "5 talks, Indore"--DhyanAntar 11:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Some extracts from text (source: Shailendra's PDF):
Ch.1: first talk of 3-day series on first sutra (freedom). "Then what is the way for a man to know the truth, to know himself, to know peace, to know music, what is the way? There is another way. I will talk to you on that road in three days. Prayer is not the way, worship is not the way, the temple is not the way, the scripture is not the door, then what is the way? What is the door? I will discuss three small formulas that I see that can be made. I will talk a little bit on the first sutra, tomorrow on the second sutra, the day after the third sutra. (Reference to ch.3 and 5.) First sutra: The first and most essential thing for a man to go to God is that he can do whatever he can, who can create, whatever he can create, but not in whatever way he can leave, erase himself, lose himself." "You are also saying learned things, and they are also saying learned things. Both things learned have no value. Whatever we learn has no value in relation to truth. So there is no value that truth is within us, it cannot be learned, but it can be known. If we can get inside then it will be known. Therefore, the first thing is to be free from knowledge. To become free from ignorance, one has to be free from knowledge. All our knowledge is little, false, taught." "The first sutra is: to become free from the thoughts and knowledge of others."
Ch.2: q/a. In beginning: "Last night I told you that until the mind of man is not free from the knowledge he has learned, he will not be able to have that knowledge which is asleep in itself. And there is no way to learn from outside. In the consciousness of man, in the soul of man, there is some power at the center of man's own life, only then he can awaken the knowledge of truth. Whatever we learn from outside to get the knowledge of truth becomes a hindrance, I told you this yesterday." (Reference to ch.1)
Ch.3: talk on second sutra (simplicity). "Yesterday I told you a few things. (Reference to ch.1) The mind of man is also tied in pegs which are not there and the human mind is also tied with ropes which are absolutely false, which do not exist. But with continuous education, by continuous repetition, any rope becomes true and any peg becomes real. And if the mind is tied to them, it becomes liberated, becomes free. And we have tied ourselves in such a thousand beliefs. In search of truth, those pegs will have to be uprooted, and also those ropes, which are constructed only by imagination. Our beliefs, our beliefs, our beliefs are very imaginary and false. And the person who is surrounded by the same beliefs and fantasies is like a camel that was tied to the non-existent pegs, and the ropes that are not there. Let me tell you, this is the first condition, this is the first role that we should free our mind from all means - from tradition, perception, society, crowd, group. Does this mean that we have to break something? Does this mean that we really have to break some chains. Chains would have had to be broken. They are only in our belief. He has strength in our faith. If our thought is awakened then there is no bond nor any compulsion... Realization of oneself is liberating, others have a bond of knowledge. I told you this yesterday. Today I will talk to you about the second step. Freedom is the first step. The mind should be free. Because the one who is tied somewhere, he is not free to search and anyone who has assumed the truth will not be able to know the truth. To get closer to the truth, mind must be free from perception... Therefore the first condition is to be free from all prejudice. What is the second condition? The second condition is to have a simple mind. But what does simplicity mean?" "The first sutra is freedom. (Reference to ch.1.) The second formula is, simplicity. I'll talk to you about that ("The third sutra is emptiness.") tomorrow night. (Reference to ch.5) If you have any questions to ask about this formula of simplicity, or about yesterday's formula of freedom (Reference to ch.1), you can ask it in the morning." (Reference to ch.4)
Ch.4: morning talk, q/a. "The ego takes very subtle forms and makes announcements. These are all conditions of ego, no more. Keep in mind that the mind is not to be tied to the corporeal, not to bind the mind. Just keep this in mind. But this does not mean that you go and break the idols and go to temples and start fire because this too limited worship started again. Even if there are fires, limited worship has started. What is wrong with you? You have to rise above the limit, you have to get up even by making an idol, you have to get up from breaking the idol. One needs a human being, one who needs a mind that rises above the idol, rises above the boundary, neither is he going to make the idol or break it. So perhaps, what is abstract, that which is abstract and formless spread all over, will be realized and realized. I will talk a little more about you tonight." (Reference to ch.5) "So it may be that I cannot answer your very long questions, but if I keep one thing in mind, there is no need to answer me. In these three days, if my point of view, my angle of vision comes to your attention, then what can I answer, you can also think. Like now, and the other answers I am giving, the answers to many questions will come in them."
Ch.5: talk on 3rd sutra, last talk of 3-day series, place - Indore. It starts with the story of a great sculptor who wanted to escape/avoid from the death and He made eleven idols of his own and hid among them and when Death came and said: 'That is, you cannot forget yourself. And you cannot forget that you made these idols. You there. You cannot forget this thing, come out. You have been caught, death has chosen you.' "The sculptor had made the sculptures, but one thing he could not forget is that I made, I am. And on the way from that death he asked what would have happened if I had forgotten that I am. The death said: I would be unable to find you. For one who forgets that I am, death ends. Death does not find him. One who forgets that I am, the ego who is immersed, attains immortality. He finds him who has no death." Then Osho continues: "In the life of man, apart from ego, I am, there is no other wall to break with immortality. I told you many things in this regard last night. Ego is wrong. Ego is darkness. Ego is suffering and suffering." (It seems reference to Panth Prem Ko Atpato (पंथ प्रेम को अटपटो) ch.5 (of Sh.PDF), talk on previous night) "There is another way, that is, to awaken the perfect consciousness within, to awaken the inner consciousness. Thoughts dissolve in full consciousness, just as the morning dew particles are frozen on leaves, on plants, on stones. As soon as the sun comes out, it starts to evaporate, it starts flying, it gets windy, it disappears. As soon as the person's consciousness is fully awake, thoughts begin to dissolve, become calm and void." (Third sutra) "Just like you will wake up, if you awaken even for a moment, then you will find that there is no thought at that time. If a man comes straight away and stabs you on your chest, then you know what will happen? You will get a moment, there is no thought." "Do not choose between good and bad thoughts. Be awake to bad thoughts and awake to good thoughts. Keep in mind that I should be full of consciousness within. Do not let anything in my mind faint. If anyone comes, I will wake up and see it. Like someone sets their guards at home. He keeps watching, who went, who came. In this way make your mind a guard, make a watchman. And as the mind becomes capable of this watch, you will be surprised, neither good thoughts nor bad thoughts will come. Both will leave because bad thoughts came because you used to remove them. Good thoughts did not stop because you used to stop them. But when you gave up both things and did not have any feeling towards the mind of good and bad, just kept witnessing, only remained witness, then there was no reason for them to come and stay. They will leave on their own. And then the state of mind will be, that is the religious mind, that is the awakened mind." "Till now the religion of the awakened man could not be born. Till now the sleeping men have religions and that is why religions have also become dens for murder. That is what I am telling you that whatever a sleeping man does, it will become a nuisance." In the end: "I also cannot answer your questions. And the answers that I have given, I will request at the end, after this discussion of three days, do not consider my answers as your answers. Do not believe what I have said that it is true... Heard my words with utmost peace and love for three days."
The chapter has the clue that the talk was in Indore: "At night you fall asleep and have a dream. We see in a dream that they are not in Indore, they are somewhere else. When you wake up in the morning and find that you are in Indore, in your house, in your bed, you say, I dreamed at night. How do you know that you dreamed?"
All chapters are in chronological order.--DhyanAntar 11:05, 19 June 2020 (UTC)