Talk:Jeevan Kranti Ke Sutra (जीवन क्रांति के सूत्र) (2)

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Current Understanding

event (*1) audio,
OshoWorld (*2)
audio,
Osho.com
1975, 2003 book ed. Shailendra's PDF Osho.com library Dates & Places (*3)
Kranti Sutra ~ 01 Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur #13 Kranti-Sutra 1. सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्ति 1. सिद्धान्त, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्त्ति (*4) Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or 15. सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्ति Kranti-Sutra 1. सिद्धान्त, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्त्ति 13 Feb 1969 am, Baroda (now Vadodara), meditation camp
Kranti Sutra ~ 02 Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur #14 Kranti-Sutra 2. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्ति 2. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्त्ति Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or 16. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्ति Kranti-Sutra 2. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्त्ति 13 Feb 1969 pm, Baroda (now Vadodara), meditation camp
Kranti Sutra ~ 03 Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur #15 Kranti-Sutra 3. दमन से मुक्ति 3. दमन से मुक्त्ति Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or 17. दमन से मुक्ति Kranti-Sutra 3. दमन से मुक्त्ति 14 Feb 1969, Baroda (now Vadodara), meditation camp (*5)
Kranti Sutra ~ 04 Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur #16 Kranti-Sutra 4. न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण 4. न भोग, न दमन--वरन् जागरण Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or 18. न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण Kranti-Sutra 4. न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण 15 Feb 1969, Baroda (now Vadodara), meditation camp (*5)
notes

(*1) In order to distinguish this series and Jeevan Kranti Ke Sutra (जीवन क्रांति के सूत्र) (also 4 talks and also in 1969) we have named events here according to a later edition of this book under the name of Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र). This is contrary to the usual practice of the wiki, whereby the first name of a book or series of talks is almost always preferred.

The reason for this is the almost impossible-to-resolve confusion and conflation between this JKKS and the other. The two JKKSs are the same titles used for two different sets of four talks from the same year. OIF may have come to the same conclusion, judging by their decision to publish this JKKS as Kranti Sutra in 2019. And this in spite of another KS, Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र) (compilation), but it has been deemed that there will be less confusion between the two KSs than there would be between the two JKKSs.

(*2) In OW's older offering of low-quality mp3s, they had #15--#18 (#10 and #12 missing: often the numbering of those LQ audios has proved meaningful).

(*3) Source of dates is 1975 book edition, which also confirmed by 1978ed. of Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or (संभोग से समाधि की ओर).

(*4) TOC of 2003 edition has one insignificant difference in first title.

(*5) Time "am" set up provisionally on basis current situation of Timeline 1969 (3 another talks from Gandhiwaad Ek Aur Sameeksha on 13 and 14 Feb). First talk of the series was on morning, it makes sense that talk #3 and 4 were also mornings.

Deliberations

This book apparently has nothing to do with Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र) (Upd. Jun 2020: this is confusion with Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र) (compilation)) nor with Kranti-Sutra: Sakshi Bhav (क्रान्ति-सूत्र : साक्षी भाव).

About the "Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or-Iv" added in front of the title in some search results, that version was all that was turning up at first and it caused considerable confusion. Finally the current cover image was found. Though it is still very small, one can see that the Iv is the Roman numeral IV, it applies to SSSKO and not JKKS, and what it actually has to do with Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or (संभोग से समाधि की ओर), more famously known in the West as From Sex to Superconsciousness, has eventually come to light.

And that is: SSSKO is a compilation of four books, of which JKKS is the fourth. More info about that at the SSSKO discussion page. Questions remain still about how the audio and book versions relate to each other. And there are ten audios available in the free download places, but when packaged as an audiobook, there are only four. And those four have different titles from the titles of the Diamond editions of SSSKO and JKKS (see below), so what to make of that?

Dates for the discourses are now reasonably solid, having been found in Neeten's Osho Source Book Appendix section. The last of those dates, Jun 2, 1969, has also been mentioned by "Doc X". -- Updated doofus-9 (talk) 21:08, 17 November 2014 (PST)

30 May - 2 Jun 1969 are dates for other series Jeevan Kranti Ke Sutra (जीवन क्रांति के सूत्र).--DhyanAntar 03:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

And fwiw, a chapter title comparison: Left column below has the audiobook versions at both Osho World and osho.com, right column the four chapters in the Diamond pb edition:

      audiobook titles:
1. पहला सूत्र: जीवन क्या है
2. दूसरा सूत्र: जीवन ऊर्जा के प्रति सजगता  
3. तीसरा सूत्र: जीवन ऊर्जा के रूपांतरण
4. चैथा सूत्र: झूठी प्यासों से मुक्ति
 
 
      Diamond pb titles:
1. सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्त्ति  
2. भीड़ से, समाज से — दूसरों से मुक्त्ति  
3. दमन से मुक्त्ति
4. न भोग, न दमन — वरन् जागरण
nb underlined word above could not be rendered  
properly from the TOC image in G**gle Books.

All above was compiled and written in more innocent times. Since then something has come along which turns the whole game upside-down and inside-out, showing that the discrepancy between the titles in the table above is only the tip of a -- dare i use the word? -- serious iceberg. Diamond's four titles turn out also to be audio titles supplied by osho.com for another book, Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र).

Kranti Sutra in its old iteration already had a substantial split in its identity, namely that the four audio discourses from osho.com did not in any way align with the 22 shortish chapters of the printed version from Diamond, which is fairly similar to Osho World's e-book version. Now with the discovery of its audio titles being identical to Diamond's book titles here, the split has been deemed irredeemable, at least until something else comes to illuminate the matter, and the two faces of Kranti Sutra have bifurcated into two separate books.

With that, we also have to consider the impact on JKKS, this book. The two versions, audio and printed books, cannot easily be reconciled. A bifurcation may have to be considered here as well. Things are in a state of flux for now. Any "Unified Field Theory" of all this frankly dualistic behaviour will need some time (which does not exist) to resolve. Stay tuned! -- doofus-9 (talk) 17:15, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


We are still waiting for that Unified Field Theory. In the meantime, JKKS has bifurcated into two, seemingly irrevocably, according to Shailendra's research into different audios, but the latest info from Jagdish re Dates and Places has them back together again, making the four in this JKKS the first four of the "other" JKKS. See the other JKKS's talk page for all the details. And stay tuned! -- doofus-9 18:16, 25 December 2018 (UTC)


I see the date of first talk in 1975 edition published by RF stated 13 Feb 1969 am, which conflict with wiki-dates...

Also i checked 4 chapters of this edition (i have this book) with Shailendra's PDF, there are also 4 chapters but completely others...--DhyanAntar 05:55, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

It is solved and cleared with help top above Current Understanding table that JKKS and JKKS (2) are different series on the same year. See Talk:Jeevan Kranti Ke Sutra (जीवन क्रांति के सूत्र) for comparing of source of that series.--DhyanAntar 03:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

media status

See Talk:Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or (संभोग से समाधि की ओर) for media info in OshoWorld collection.