Talk:Jeevan Rahasya (जीवन रहस्य)
Current Understanding
| event | audio, OshoWorld |
audio, Osho.com |
1977 book ed. | Shailendra's PDF | Oshoganga | Osho.com library | OshoWorld e-book | Dates & Places |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mahaveer Meri Drishti Mein ~ 24 | Mahaveer Meri Drishti Mein #24 | Mahavir Meri Drishti Mein 24. दुख, सुख और महावीर-आनंद |
|
Mahaveer Meri Drishti Mein 24. दुख, सुख और महावीर-आनंद | Mahaveer Meri Drishti Mein 24. दुख, सुख और महावीर-आनंद | Mahavir Meri Drishti Mein 24. दुख, सुख और महावीर-आनंद | 1 Oct 1969 pm, Pahalgam, meditation camp | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 01 | #01 | 01. परमात्मा को पाने का लोभ | 2. अस्तित्व का द्वार (p.33 (q.1) - p.53 missing first 3 sentences Srinagar, 3 Oct 1969 |
1. परमात्मा को पाने का लोभ | 1. परमात्मा को पाने का लोभ | 1. परमात्मा को पाने का लोभ | 1. (no title) | 3 Oct 1969 am, Srinagar |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 02 | #02 | 02. मौन का द्वार | 3. मौन का द्वार Srinagar, 3 Oct 1969 pm |
2. मौन का द्वार | 2. मौन का द्वार | 2. मौन का द्वार | 2. मौन का द्वार | 3 Oct 1969 pm, Srinagar |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 03 | #03 beginning and end incomplete |
03. स्वरूप का उदघाटन "beginning and ending missing" |
4. अन्धा खेल Srinagar, 27 Sep 1969 |
3. स्वरूप का उदघाटन missing beginning (question itself?) |
03. स्वरूप का उदघाटन missing beginning |
3. स्वरूप का उदघाटन<missing beginning | 3. अंधा खेल missing beginning |
27 Sep 1969 pm, Srinagar |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 04 | #04 incomplete |
04. प्रार्थना: अद्वैत प्रेम की अनुभूति "incomplete" |
4. प्रार्थना : अद्वैत प्रेम की अनुभूति | 4. प्रार्थना : अद्वैत प्रेम की अनुभूति | 4. प्रार्थना : अद्वैत प्रेम की अनुभूति | 4. (no title) incomplete |
1 Apr 1969 pm, place unknown (*2) | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 14 | #05 incomplete |
? | ? | 5. (no title, p.48-61) incomplete |
≤ 1970 (*3) | |||
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 05 | #06 incomplete |
05. विश्वास—विचार—विवेक "incomplete" |
5. विश्वास--विचार--विवेक incomplete |
5. विश्वास—विचार—विवेक incomplete |
5. विश्वास--विचार--विवेक incomplete |
6. (no title) incomplete |
8 Mar 1969 am, Bombay (*4) | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 06 | #07 | 06. उधार ज्ञान से मुक्ति | 6. उधार ज्ञान से मुक्ति missing first 5 sentences before the talk |
6. उधार ज्ञान से मुक्ति missing first 5 sentences before the talk |
6. उधार ज्ञान से मुक्ति missing first 5 sentences before the talk |
7. (no title) first 5 sentences are presented |
9 Mar 1969 am, Mithapur GJ | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 07 (*5) | #08 | 07. पिछले जन्मों का स्मरण | 7. पिछले जन्मों का स्मरण | 7. पिछले जन्मों का स्मरण | 7. पिछले जन्मों का स्मरण | 8. (no title) missing first question, the talk starts with a response to it |
12 Jun 1969 am, Bhagwan Bhuvan, Bombay | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 08 | #09 much incomplete (available first 8 min only) |
08. नये वर्ष का नया दिन | 8. नये वर्ष का नया दिन | 8. नये वर्ष का नया दिन | 8. नये वर्ष का नया दिन | 9. (no title) | 10 Nov 1969 om**, CB Mehta's house, Bombay | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 09 | #10 audio distorted |
09. मैं कोई विचारक नहीं हूं "poor quality audio" |
9. मैं कोई विचारक नहीं हूं | 9. मैं कोई विचारक नहीं हूं | 9. मैं कोई विचारक नहीं हूं | 10. (no title) | 9 Mar 1970 om**, Lion's Club, Rajkot | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 10 | #11 | 10. मनुष्य की एकमात्र समस्या: भीतर का खालीपन | 10. मनुष्य की एकमात्र समस्या : भीतर का खालीपन | 10. मनुष्य की एक मात्र समस्या : भीतर का खालीपन | 10. मनुष्य की एकमात्र समस्या : भीतर का खालीपन | 11. (no title) | ≤ 1970, pm | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 11 | #12 missing at least first 4 sentences |
11. प्रेम करना; पूजा नहीं "beginning missing plus sound dropout" |
11. प्रेम करना; पूजा नहीं | 11. प्रेम करना : पूजा नहीं | 11. प्रेम करना; पूजा नहीं | 12. (no title) beginning incomplete |
≤ 1970 | |
| Jeevan Rahasya ~ 12 | #13 missing first 3 paragraphs; end distorted and incomplete |
12. धन्य हैं वे जो सरल हैं "beginning missing plus sound dropout" |
12. धन्य हैं वे जो सरल हैं | 12. धन्य है वे जो सरल है | 12. धन्य हैं वे जो सरल हैं | 13. (no title) beginning incomplete |
≤ 1970 (*6) | |
| Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun ~ 05 | Mati Kahe Kumhar Su #5 | 13. जीवन क्या है | Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun 5. जीवन क्या है? | 13. जीवन क्या है? | 13. जीवन क्या है? | 11 Dec 1970 pm (or am?), Woodlands, Bombay (*7) |
- Notes
- (*1) Date and place stated in the book is incorrect as text of the chapter belongs to Mahaveer Meri Drishti Mein ~ 24, a talk given at Pahalgam meditation camp on night of 1 Oct 1969.
- (*2) Time of date is from text of the talk. Osho also mentions that night meditation will be after the talk.
- (*3) This event is available on OshoWorld as far as we know as ch.5 in audio and in e-book. Its text does not match to other sources.
- (*4) Some clues mentioned in this talk regarding previous talk of a series on last night: "I spoke to you on two sources (sutras) yesterday." "So what I told you yesterday, it is necessary to think, it is not necessary to stop on faith.... So I told you yesterday to let the faith go, let the thought come. And when does the idea come up? The idea comes when we muster the courage to doubt. The courage to doubt is the soul of thought. The same man can think who can doubt."
- (*5) This event is a private talk as stated in Sambodhi Ke Kshan: "collection of intimate talks", see its talk-page.
- (*6) Osho refered in the end of the talk that he will said more in coming discussions.
- (*7) See Talk:Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun (माटी कहै कुम्हार सूं) for info on date.
Deliberations
TOC / track list below is as given by osho.com. Sound quality is said to be not great for some discourses and some audio is missing parts. E-book at Osho World seems to be complete text, ie 13 discourses, though missing almost all chapter titles (#2 is there and #3 is different) and indicating parts here and there unavailable.
Also fwiw, book cover img was not found connected with 216-page hardcover edition info, therefore only presumed. Updated Sarlo (talk) 21:06, 6 June 2014 (PDT)
- अनुक्रम (TOC):
- 1: परमात्मा को पाने का लोभ
- 2: मौन का द्वार
- 3: स्वरूप का उदघाटन
- 4: प्रार्थना : अद्वैत प्रेम की अनुभूति
- 5: विश्वास—विचार—विवेक
- 6: उधार ज्ञान से मुक्ति
- 7: पिछले जन्मों का स्मरण
- 8: नये वर्ष का नया दिन
- 9: मैं कोई विचारक नहीं हूं
- 10: मनुष्य की एकमात्र समस्या : भीतर का खालीपन
- 11: प्रेम करना ; पूजा नहीं
- 12: धन्य हैं वे जो सरल हैं
- 13: जीवन क्या है
13th talk was given on Osho's birthday 11-12-1970, removed from later edition of Jeevan Rahasya, and included in Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun (माटी कहै कुम्हार सूं) as ch.5 (source - Shailendra).--DhyanAntar 11:07, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Dates and Places info from Jagdish, a few notes below:
- 1: Oct 3 1969 am Srinagar
- 2: Oct 3 1969 pm Srinagar
- 3: Sep 27 1969 pm Srinagar
- 4: Apr 1 1969 . . . . . . (Q&A)
- 5: Mar 8 1969 am Bombay (Q&A re society)
- 6: Mar 9 1969 am Mithapur (near Dwarka GJ)
- 7: Jun 12 1969 am Bhagwan Bhuvan Bombay (re reincarnation)
- 8: Nov 10 1969 om CB Mehta's house Bombay (New Year's message)
- 9: Mar 9 1970 om Lion's Club Rajkot (thoughts and vision)
- 10: . . . . . . . . . . .
- 11: . . . . . . . . . . . (Q&A)
- 12: . . . . . . . . . . .
- 13: Dec 11 1970 pm Woodlands Bombay (Birthday)
The Srinagar dates are curious, since there was a long full camp with talks on Mahaveer going on in Pahalgam at that time. But Srinagar is near Pahalgam, so maybe the location was just "rounded off". Two non-camp Early Talks were also added in the camp time frame, so it was a busy time. Ch 1 and 2 come after the camp, but ch 3 is right in there. In the 15 days of the camp, there are 25 Mahaveer discourses plus the two Early Talks. This is all doable though, so maybe not a big problem to include #3.
And the date and time of #13 are exactly the same as Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun (माटी कहै कुम्हार सूं) #5, so the media status claim concerning it below should be checked out. -- doofus-9 07:56, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Hindi series of talks with dates (source document): "Jeevan Rahasya, 3 talks, 02-03.10.69", more or less confirming two of Jagdish's first three dates. It remains to be seen how the third will play out. --DhyanAntar 14:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) / doofus-9 17:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Early Edition
Early book with 4 chapter gives some info on last page: Srinagar (Kashmir), 27th September 1969.--DhyanAntar 06:29, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes. Jagdish above has ch 3 of the 13-ch version on that date. This early edition is out of step with lots of things, but it will be good to record their data anyway.
TOC:
- रहस्य का द्वार
- अस्तित्व का द्वार
- मौन का द्वार
- अंधा खेल
Of these four titles, only one can be found in the 13-ch version, ch 3 here being ch 2 in the 13-er. The titles seem a bit formulaic, which does sometimes happen in "official" editions but more often in others. What is the status of this edition?
Om Rajneesh Dhyan Kendra Prakashan in Bombay is not a publisher we have heard much of, but Sw Ishwar Samarpan IS a familiar figure of the Mumbai publishing scene, having been the name atop the masthead of Jeevan Jagriti Kendra for many years. The copyright attributed to Rajneesh Foundation in Pune would put the publication after the move to Pune in 1974, with Ishwar Samarpan apparently staying behind in Mumbai. It can be reasonably speculated that Ishwarji has published this book -- and others with it, see their books list -- to make up for a lack that he saw, that Jeevan Rahasya, or at least these chapters, had never been published.
Going further ... the wiki has images from at least two of the books in Om's book list, and both are published in 1977, and all nine are based on talks given in 1970 or earlier, save possibly Rajneesh Dhyan Yog (रजनीश ध्यान योग), which is likely a compilation. This strengthens the impression that Ishwar Samarpan had waited long and believed that they would never get published if he didn't do it. And we can also speculate reasonably at this point that 1977 might be a likely pub date for Jeevan Rahasya. It must in any case be 1977 or later, but as likely as not, these books were all done in a flurry.
One more amusing speculation centers on another of these nine titles, which asks the question "Is God Dead?" The language of the title gives it a little personal twist for Ishwarji, since the word for God in this title is "Ishwar", so it could just as well be asking "Is Ishwar Dead?" These publications would seem to assert that, "no, he is not". -- doofus-9 23:51, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps 13th talk lists as "janma – din hai ya mrityu – din?" with date 11 Dec 1970, place Bombay, in Rabia Osho books (source document) list.--DhyanAntar 06:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
media status
Both Osho.com and OW have 13 MP3s under this title. One thing is clear: OW's MP3 #13 is NOT the same as Mati Kahai Kumhar Su #05. --Sugit (talk) 12:17, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
It is not clear to me at all why Mati #5 is not the same as Rahasya #13. There are claims that they are the same, and their titles are the same. There is admittedly a hurdle with their timings but in fact, OW's timings for the 13 talks of Rahasya are significantly different from o.com's timings in about half the talks, and #13 is one of those differences, where OW has 58 min and o.com 48, the same as Mati #5. The comparison for all 13 talks goes, with o.com's timings first, then OW's:
- 1: परमात्मा को पाने का लोभ 53 // 53
- 2: मौन का द्वार 57 // 57
- 3: स्वरूप का उदघाटन (beginning and ending missing) 50 // 49
- 4: प्रार्थना: अद्वैत प्रेम की अनुभूति (incomplete) 57 // 56
- 5: विश्वास—विचार—विवेक (incomplete) 36 // 1h 09
- 6: उधार ज्ञान से मुक्ति 41 // 35
- 7: पिछले जन्मों का स्मरण 38 // 40
- 8: नये वर्ष का नया दिन 34 // 37
- 9: मैं कोई विचारक नहीं हूं (poor quality audio) 29 // 8
- 10: मनुष्य की एकमात्र समस्या: भीतर का खालीपन 71 // 28
- 11: प्रेम करना; पूजा नहीं (beginning missing plus sound dropout) 58 // 1h 10
- 12: धन्य हैं वे जो सरल हैं (beginning missing plus sound dropout) 59 // 58
- 13: जीवन क्या है 48 // 58
-- doofus-9 02:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
As top table of this page shows that starting from 5th talk OW and osho.con audios do not match (they all checked by text).--DhyanAntar 09:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
