Talk:Jyon Ki Tyon Dhari Dinhi Chadariya (ज्यों की त्यों धरि दीन्हीं चदरिया)
Current Understanding
This is a summary of our present knowledge of the basic facts about this book, according to a decent consensus of sources. Notes below relate to areas where it wasn't always so.
| Talk # | Date | Place | Section title |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Sep 1 1970 am | Shanmukhanand Hall, Bombay | Panch Mahavrat (*1) |
| 2 | Sep 2 1970 am | Shanmukhanand Hall, Bombay | Panch Mahavrat |
| 3 | Sep 3 1970 am | Shanmukhanand Hall, Bombay | Panch Mahavrat |
| 4 | Sep 4 1970 am | Shanmukhanand Hall, Bombay | Panch Mahavrat |
| 5 | Sep 5 1970 am | Shanmukhanand Hall, Bombay | Panch Mahavrat |
| 6 | Nov 10 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki (*2) |
| 7 | Nov 11 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki |
| 8 | Nov 12 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki |
| 9 | Nov 13 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki |
| 10 | Nov 14 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki |
| 11 | Nov 15 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki |
| 12 | Nov 16 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki |
| 13 | Nov 17 1970 am | Cross Maidan, Bombay | Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki |
(*1) and (*2) = The book as a whole deals with the "Panch Mahavrat", or Five Great Vows of Jainism taken by Jain monks and nuns: non-violence, truthfulness, non-stealing, celibacy and non–attachment. Thus, Panch Mahavrat came to be thought of for a while as an unofficial overall title for the series, but lately reliable sources are saying it applies better only to the first five talks, with the last eight talks' First Edition title, Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki, being used more as a section title.
The overall structure has remained more or less the same throughout the evolution of the wiki's exploration of this book. The first five talks are straight discourses, one for each of the five vows, and the last eight (Suli) are Q&A talks relating to the first five but given in a large open park in Mumbai.
Notes below are the somewhat unorganized discussions chronicling the development of the understanding above.
Deliberations
Depending on the edition, this book consists of either five or thirteen discourses. Why the discrepancy? It is because the name is applied to two different but related series of talks given in 1970: the first five in Jul and/or Aug (or "Doc X" has it Sep 1-5) and the last eight in Nov (TREMO / Gyan Bhed has it Nov 10-17 but the wiki currently relies on other sources which say Nov 9-16).
- Info culled from Neeten's Osho Source Book Bombay section taken with other info above now make a good case for updating the dates. Neeten has JKTDDC on Sep 1-5, with an explicit note about it being his first discourses outside his residence at CCI Chambers after moving to Mumbai, and an explicit location, Shanmukhananda Hall, and he has Nov 10-17 for the continuation, outside at Cross Maidan. He may have got this from Gyan Bhed but we should not second-guess that at this point.
- In his Appendix, Neeten has a garbled date ref for one day, Sep 28 plus one ref for 13 talks of "Panch Maha Vrut", Sep 1-17, neither very credible, but he also has a believable pub date for JKTDDC of 1971 with some details, so that has been added to the article page. -- doofus-9 19:24, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
The title of the latter eight-discourse series is Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki. There are few references to this title around the net but enough to accept that the series did have an independent existence before becoming united with JKTDDC later, though they are quite complementary thematically. But a compelling case cannot be made for changing this dual-name thing, especially now that an early edition photo of SUSPK has been found.
Most Hindi audio sites do not mention SUSPK at all and say that JKTDDC has 13 discourses, but one site, Tao Vision, lists both in their Mahavir category thusly:
- Jyon Ki Tyon Dhari Dinhi Chadariya (Panch Mahavrat) (Jyon Ki Tyon Dhari Dinhi Chadariya), consisting of five discourses; and
- Jyon Ki Tyon Dhari Dinhi Chadariya (Panch Mahavrat) (Suli Upar Sej Piya Ki), consisting of eight discourses.
This "Panch Mahavrat" has some significance beyond its mere sameness in the listing of these two series by Tao Vision. For starters, it appears on all the book covers, as a subtitle. It is translated usually as Five Great Vows, a staple of Jainism referring to the five fairly serious resolves undertaken by Jain monks and nuns: non-violence, truthfulness, non-stealing, celibacy and non–attachment. Osho of course has his own take on this.
As it happens, the Panch Mahavrat are supplemented by five other thingies, Samitis or "carefulnesses," referring to principles or practices said to "purify" one's actions, and three Guptis or "preservations," said to inhibit sinful actions. Never mind the implied moral strait-jacketing of this kind of language, can you see where i'm going with this? Yes! 5 + 5 + 3 = 13! Ha ha!
Not that he is devoting each discourse to a particular virtue, but the thread of 13-ness permeates this book. And the thread of virtues and "moral" principles, of course with Osho's unique vision applied. Here is the TOC:
प्रवचन 1 : अहिंसा -- Ahimsa (non-violence) प्रवचन 2 : अपरिग्रह -- Aparigraha (renunciation) प्रवचन 3 : अचौर्य -- Achaurya (non-stealing) प्रवचन 4 : अकाम -- Akam (non-doing) प्रवचन 5 : अप्रमाद -- Apramada (awareness) प्रवचन 6 : अहिंसा (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Ahimsa (Q&A) प्रवचन 7 : ब्रह्मचर्य (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Brahmacharya (celibacy) (Q&A) प्रवचन 8 : अपरिग्रह (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Aparigraha (Q&A) प्रवचन 9 : अचौर्य (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Achaurya (Q&A) प्रवचन 10 : संन्यास (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Sannyasa (retirement) (Q&A) प्रवचन 11 : अकाम (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Akam (Q&A) प्रवचन 12 : तंत्र (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Tantra (methods) (Q&A) प्रवचन 13 : अप्रमाद (प्रश्नोत्तर) -- Apramada (Q&A)
All 13 discourses have been translated into English as a more or less unified whole, in The Art of Living (13 talks), though the last eight are said to have been translated from SUSPK and only the first five from JKTDDC. -- updated Sarlo (talk) 00:05, 10 September 2014 (PDT)
- A small update: FWIW, in their current audiobook offerings, both osho.com and Osho World now refer to all eight of the last talks as Q&A, not just the five that deal with the panch mahavrat as above. Also fwiw, Shailendra refers to only the first five talks of JKTDDC as "Panch Mahavrat" and the last eight as SUSPK. -- doofus-9 22:48, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
- The small update: added "(प्रश्नोत्तर)" to titles of ch.7, 10, 12. Talks 6-13 are Q&A. About that states TOC of the 2012 edition (see main page) and Shailendra's e-book. Also i removed "य" after the title of ch.9 that seems erroneous.--DhyanAntar 06:55, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
the Diamond edition shows the title written as ज्यों िक त्यों धरि दीन्हीं चदरिया , but they fixed that on the back --Rudra (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2014 (PST)
Good find re Diamond and Fusion numbers of pages. I think that settles how many chapters for those editions. Sarlo (talk) 23:38, 4 March 2014 (PST)
Sarlo, added info about 2012 edition. The book has a liitle other cover.
And check pls transliteration of subtitle. Thanks. --DhyanAntar 13:15, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Dates and Places data from Jagdish, image right, have been transcribed directly into the "current understanding" table at the top of the page. -- doofus-9 04:25, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
According to Foreword (see image of first edition with Osho picture): this series (5 talks) is dated December 1-5, 1970. It seems the month is wrong: all above sources state September and December is occupied by Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 1-2 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय १-२) in Timeline 1970.--DhyanAntar 10:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Updated: Oh yeah, last page with text (p.136) states correct dates ( 1-5 September ) and also mentions SUSPK with dates Nov 10-17, 1970. So all is well! (c)--DhyanAntar 14:01, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
OW audio checks:
- 1st audio is ch.1 of Shailendra's PDF, but first 2-3 sentences in the PDF don't match to the audio.--DhyanAntar 04:09, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- 9th audio is ch.9 of Shailendra's PDF. See Talk:Nav-Sannyas Kya? (नव-संन्यास क्या?). However stated time is pm in that book.--DhyanAntar 05:29, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
