Talk:Kaha Kahun Us Des Ki (कहा कहूं उस देस की)
Current Understanding
| event | audio, OshoWorld |
audio, Osho.com (*1) |
1980 book ed. | Shailendra's PDF | Oshoganga | Other book editions | Dates & Places |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Tamso Ma Jyotirgamaya ~ 08 | Tamso Ma Jyotirgamaya #8 | Tamsoma Jyotirgamay 8. आध्यात्मिक साम्यवाद | 1. आध्यात्मिक साम्यवाद missing first paragraph Baroda, 17 Aug 1969 |
|
Tamso Ma Jyotirgamaya 8. आध्यात्मिक साम्यवाद | Tamso Ma Jyotirgamaya (तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय), ch.8 | 17 Aug 1969 pm, Vadodara (Baroda) |
| Kaha Kahun Us Des Ki ~ 02 (*2) | #1 missing beginning (*2) |
1. विचार और जागरण missing beginning |
2. अनुभूति और अभिव्यक्ति missing first question itself, text starts with response Bombay, 15 Nov 1969 |
2. अनुभूति और अभिव्यक्ति missing first question itself, text starts with response Bombay, 15 Nov 1969 (*2) |
|
Sambodhi Ke Kshan (सम्बोधि के क्षण), 2004ed., ch.6 (it looks complete and unedited) |
15 Nov 1969, Bombay |
| Sambodhi Ke Kshan ~ 06 | Sambodhi Ke Kshan #5 missing first question itself; end is very incomplete (~7 pages of the PDF) |
Sambodhi Ke Kshan 6. असुरक्षा--प्रवाह--स्वीकार (*4) missing first question itself; end is very incomplete (~7 pages of the PDF) |
3. असुरक्षा--प्रवाह--स्वीकार Bombay, 14 Dec 1969 |
|
Sambodhi Ke Kshan 3. असुरक्षा..प्रवाह..स्वीकार | 14 Dec 1969?, Bombay? (*9) | |
| Sukh Aur Shanti ~ 09 | Sukh Aur Shanti #9 q.1-3, q.3 incomplete |
Sukh Aur Shanti 9. अमृत-मथंन "incomplete" |
4. दर्शन--ज्ञान--चरित्र here is only q.3 (no date) |
|
|
1967?, a camp? (*5) | |
| Jeevan Sangeet ~ 06 | Jeevan Sangeet #5 (before 24m 18s) beginning incomplete |
Jeevan Sangeet 6. समस्त के प्रति प्रेम ही प्रार्थना है (before 24:33) beginning incomplete |
5. प्रार्थना क्या है beginning incomplete, missing last sentence Udaipur, 5 Jun 1969, afternooon (*6) |
|
|
5 Jun 1969 om **, Udaipur (*6) | |
| Upasana Ke Kshan ~ 07 |
|
|
Upasana Ke Kshan 7. उपासना का मतलबः पास बैठना end incomplete |
|
Upasana Ke Kshan (उपासना के क्षण), ch.7, 2013ed. | 4 Jun 1969 om **, Udaipur | |
| Kaha Kahun Us Des Ki ~ 06 | #2 last minutes have not been transcribed |
2. धर्म और क्रांति last minutes have not been transcribed |
6. धर्म और क्रांति first question itself missing talk with representative of the Times of India, Bombay, 4 Dec 1968 |
6. धर्म और क्रांति first question itself missing talk with representative of the Times of India, Bombay, 4 Dec 1968 |
2. धर्म और क्रांति | 4 Dec 1968 om **, Bombay (*8) |
- Notes
- (*1) Osho.com lists 3 audios for this series, but only two of them are available. No clue what event is for last audio.
- (*2) Shailendra on completeness of the event (14.09.2020): "This audio (OW #1) starts to match with text from p.21 of ch.2 of the PDF. The first part of the chapter on pages 17-21 belongs to this event: in this case audio is incomplete. Because the subject matter is in continuity. The questioner asked in reference to what has been said by Osho before." This is intimate talk, i.e. private talk as in the Timeline, as it presents in Sambodhi Ke Kshan 2004 ed.
- (*3) Text of the event is repeated twicely: ch.1, which seems unedited and incomplete in beginning, and as second part of ch.3, where text differs (is edited) from ch.1 version. Or vice versa: ch.1 is edited and second part of ch.3 is not??
- (*4) It is #3 in Khajana collection.
- (*5) About date/place see footnote (*6) of Talk:Sukh Aur Shanti (सुख और शांति).
- (*6) Month in Oshoganga and Shailendra's PDF is incorrect due OCR error. Diacritic sign jumped on second letter: from "जून" (June) to "जनू" (Jan). "June" stated in 1980 ed. is correct as Osho was talking 3-6 June in Udaipur meanwhile Timeline doesn't have mentioning on 5 Jan for Udaipur or close places.
- (*7) This audio is #7 in Khajana collection and from 12:20 there follows small English part from Early Talks ~ 01:
- "Then you become totally independent. Independence one needs. Outwardly will be gained in any occupation. But an occupation like gardening or farming will do much good. Bodily, mentally and spiritually -- on all layers of life, it will be helpful."
- It is in OshoWorld audio from 12:26. On Osho.com this audio are selling together with previous short audio of Upasana series.
- (*8) Date and place are confirmed by tape label.
- (*9) Although the book edition states Bombay, on that day (14 Dec 1969) Osho just returned from Bombay to Jabalpur (departed from there on previous day). See Osho Timeline 1969. So either place or day or both is incorrect.
Deliberations
Two main issues to look at with this book. As often happens, understanding starts off fairly unclear. In the case of this book, input from a knowledgeable Hindi speaker has added undreamed-of subtlety to the first matter. Older writings that illuminate the process of dawning understanding have been preserved. Note that the title has been changed since the material just below was written
Renderings of the Title
Many are the mini-anomalies connected with this book. What may be the most unusual are not the transliterations -- though there are indeed some of them -- but the "literations," if you will, ie the varied renderings in Devanagari. The variety involves two of the words, "Us" and "Desh." At Diamond's own page for the book, they have as a text rendering, "कहा कहूं इस देश की," or to boil it down to the words in question, इस देश. This alongside their own cover image which has उस देस. This is an odd position, to gainsay your own cover image. What can be up with that?
Searching for the transliterated title does not yield any clues, since what you get are booksellers and audio sites who don't mess with the Devanagari. And searching for the varieties of Devanagari title brings few results, so some inferring needs to be applied. These are the results:
- उस देस: two hits at osho.com
- उस देश: seven hits at Printsasia
- इस देश: a few hits at Diamond
- इस देस: zero hits, zip, nada, kuchh nahin
Desh is a common word in Hindi, meaning country or land, among other things. A further clue therefore can be found in looking in generic places, how is it rendered. In fact it turns out that देश is it, with very few results with देस, and those fairly random and chaotic, and the most common result on that side of the coin being देसी, or desi.
So it looks like Diamond has botched the cover but "corrected" it in their text version -- corrected ie aside from the bizarre इस replacing उस -- while osho.com has gone the route of making their text version consistent with the incorrect cover version and Printsasia has taken the middle path. I guess they want text searchers to find their page and Diamond and osho.com don't.
Meanwhile, other stuff: There IS variety in the first word as well, comes out variously as Ka and Kya, but no need to be too troubled by that. -- doofus-9 05:46, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
- Turns out there's more than meets the ignorant Western eye in this. Shailendra explains:
- Kaha Kahun Us Des Ki (कहा कहूं उस देस की): Des and देस are right in this title. In modern Hindi language, which is hardly one century old, देश (Desh) is the right word, but most Sants during the last 7 centuries spoke different local dialects according to their places of birth.
- For example Kabir lived in Varanasi; he spoke Bhojpuri dialect. In most parts of Bihar, UP, UK, and even in Malaysia, no Indian can pronounce,SH (श) so it is replaced with S (स).
- 2 years ago, on a national TV, there was a documentary on Osho, in which the Bihari commentator kept saying "Oso" again and again. It was so irritating! Punjab, HR, Kashmir, and 50% of the Delhi population cannot pronounce a "half S", ie when joined with other consonants, such as in station / stop / school. They will say and write these words as satetion, satop and sakool, saying सटेशन for स्टेशन, सटॉप for स्टॉप and सकूल for स्कूल,
- In the Bundelkhandi dialect of MP & UP, station becomes teshan स्टेशन ==> टेशन. Or my name and spelling changes from Shailendra to Selinder शैलेन्द्र ==> सेलिंदर. All these spellings are officially accepted. If I get a cheque/draft from a Punjab bank, with spelling Selinder, a Delhi bank will not reject it.
- Same story with - Dariya Kahai Sabda Nirbana (दरिया कहै सब्द निरबाना), [ie the modern Hindi form of Shabd (शब्द) may be rendered more authentically according to dialect as Sabd (सब्द).]
- Mostly Osho himself could not pronounce श, he said स in Hindi. A very famous singer Asha Bhonsale cannot pronounce her own name. Special songs are written for her in which श is avoided. Many Nepali people do just opposite -- they speak श in place of स.
- There is a super hit song in which a Bihari singer is teaching music to his girlfriend from MP: Sawan ka mahina pawan kare sor (in the rainy month, the strong wind is making a loud sound). She sings SHOR, the correct Hindi. He insists this is wrong, "Say SOR". She makes this "mistake" again and again.
- Ha ha. So it's like, Des and देस are not "correct", but they are "authentic", in terms of rendering the usage of a time, place or person. So apologies to Diamond and osho.com, whose renderings have not been so off-the-wall. -- doofus-9 07:53, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
.
What an informative piece on the Hindi.
And may I add an illustration of the spelling for the famous Asha Bhosle, from right around the corner of my house.
I went to her concert, amazing. --Sugit (talk) 10:37, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Cool!
It looks like everyone can be right here. Bhosle does appear to be how she is known everywhere in the Latin alphabet world. W'pedia notes that she "has been credited variously as Asha, Asha Bhosle, Asha Bhonsale, Asha Bhonsle, Asha Bhonsley, Asha Bhosale and Asha Bhosley". But when we go over to Devanagari, we find her in Hindi W'pedia as आशा भोंसले, which "should" transliterate to Asha Bhonsale. Nasalized "n"s and schwa "a"s are often omitted in everyday transliteration, so there ya go.
And i learned she is the sister of Lata Mangeshkar, one of Osho's favourite singers. -- doofus-9 15:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Number of Discourses
And discourses, how many, is it two or four? You might well arsk. And by the bye, how does Diamond manage to make 160 pages out of four discourses, never mind two? That second question will have to wait. The first is perhaps approachable by sifting through the info available. Most audio sites just have two, including Osho World's free download section. Intriguingly, OW has, in its commercial CD dept, found two more discourses, so they offer the four there. (Usually, if there's a difference, the free downloads will outnumber the paid ones.) Below are OW's four discourse titles:
- 1. विचार और जागरण
- 2. धर्म और क्रांति
- 3. अनुभूति और अभिव्यक्ति
- 4. प्रार्थना क्या है?
Also regarding the number of discourses, in the fwiw dept, we have this from osho.com. Here it is they who are taking the middle path. Their audiobook offering goes like this:
- 0.
- 0.
- 1. विचार और जागरण
- 2. धर्म और क्रांति
Both two AND four! How about that! And they have outdone themselves by middle-pathing it in another way, breathtakingly and brilliantly simple and innocent. In the bumpf for the series, which i have taken for the Hindi book description on the main page, they declare unabashedly that there are THREE discourses. So there you have it. -- Sarlo (talk) 11:14, 9 July 2014 (PDT)
- Small update: Just to make a liar out of me, osho.com has changed their presentation of this series in the following ways: The first short sentence in the bumpf about there being three discourses is gone, and they now present their tracks list like this:
- Total three tracks
- 1. विचार और जागरण
- 2. धर्म और क्रांति
- 3. Audio not available
- nbd -- doofus-9 05:46, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
- And the winner is ... at least according to the TOC in the 1990 edition ... Six: four PLUS two! Higher Math. And that TOC (click image right to enlarge):
- 1. आध्यात्मिक साम्यवाद . . . . . . . 1
- 2. अनुभूति और अभिव्यक्ति . . . . 19
- 3. असुरक्षा--प्रवाह--स्वीकार . . . .43
- 4. दर्शन--ज्ञान--चरित्र . . . . . . . .75
- 5. प्रार्थना क्या है . . . . . . . . . . . . 81
- 6. धर्म और क्रांति . . . . . . . . . . . .89
Since most of the audio TOCs above only have two titles, there is not much to compare, but fwiw ... One of the titles in all of them, धर्म और क्रांति, persists in this 1990 Rebel book. but the other, विचार और जागरण, is not to be found. Curious! The other two titles found in OW's audiobook are here, अनुभूति और अभिव्यक्ति and प्रार्थना क्या है. Chapters 1, 3 and 4 have no known antecedents. Stay tuned. -- doofus-9 17:49, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Unclear relation of chapters 1, 3 with ch.8 of Shiksha Mein Kranti (शिक्षा में क्रांति) (see Shifting content in Hindi books (source document)). Contents of first edition looks differs...
- It can be explained in this way: ch.1 and 3 of Kaha on Oshoganga are from one event, but differ incompleteness. Last part of that event was combined with another event (Upasana Ke Kshan ~ 01) and it will become ch.8 of Shiksha. That ch.8 was first published as Agyat Ke Nae Aayam (अज्ञात के नए आयाम).--DhyanAntar 14:40, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Renderings of the Title, cont'd:
The 1980 Rajneesh Foundation edition was added on the basis of the recent publications list of Rahiman Dhaga Prem Ka (रहिमन धागा प्रेम का), published in July 1980. In that list, it was referred to as a "pocket edition".
And this new pubs list has turned out to be the final push to changing the last holdout bit of title, from "Desh" to "Des". Notwithstanding that "Des/देस" was and is archaic, uncommon and "incorrect", it is also in the end apparently what was intended. It is not an aberration of later editions but has been there since at least 1980. Not that there is a "tradition" that has to be upheld, but that archaic usage had something to convey, had a point to make. It is on more than one cover, Shailendra has argued the case, and it is in the new pubs list. So be it. -- doofus-9 08:21, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Dates and places
Shailendra throw light on dates and places of this series:
- 1. आध्यात्मिक साम्यवाद - बड़ौदा, 17 अगस्त, 1969
- 2. अनुभूति और अभिव्यक्ति - बंबई; 15 नवंबर, 1969
- 3. असुरक्षा--प्रवाह--स्वीकार - बंबई, 14 दिसंबर, 1969
- 4. दर्शन--ज्ञान--चरित्र Date & Place Unknown
- 5. प्रार्थना क्या है - उदयपुर; 5 जनू, 1969; दोपहर
- 6. धर्म और क्रांति - टाइम्स ऑफ इंडिया के प्रतिनिधि के साथ वार्ता, बंबई, 4 दिसंबर, 1968
In GoogleTranslate, this gives:
- 1. Spiritual Communism - Baroda, August 17, 1969
- 2. Cognition and Expression - Bombay; November 15, 1969
- 3. Insecurity - Stream - Accept - Bombay, December 14, 1969
- 4. Philosophy - Knowledge - Character Date & Place Unknown
- 5. What is prayer - Udaipur; 5th Jan, 1969; afternoon (om)
- 6. Religion and Revolution - Talks with Representatives of the Times of India, Bombay, December 4, 1968
It seems above dates do not used in events and Timeline.
Anuragiji have found first edition, see images on main pages, and also he stated: "Talk with an representative of Times. 4th December 1968".--DhyanAntar 04:38, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
