Talk:Karuna Aur Kranti (करुणा और क्रान्ति)
The theme of the book apparently is that compassion and revolution do not mix well. About the location of talks, that it is both Mumbai and Meditation Camp is unlikely but not impossible, so one may have to choose. -- Sarlo (talk) 10:26, 12 June 2014 (PDT)
- विषय सूची (TOC):
- 1: करुणा के फूल
- 2: आनंद का झरना
- 3: प्रेम के प्रतिबिंब
- 4: अरूप की झलक
- 5: अंतहीन यात्रा
- 6: शून्य के क्षण
- 7: पूर्ण का द्वार
The source of the text-TOC above is unknown but it matches well with Diamond's 2012 TOC. The one exception is the first word of ch 5, which is similar enough to not worry about different meanings and whatnot. What this TOC fails to do is give the slightest confirmation of Diamond's intriguing assertion that Shiksha Mein Kranti (शिक्षा में क्रांति) is in some way an antecedent work to this collection. There are precisely zero correspondences between the titles of this small tome and any of Shiksha's titles. Titles could have changed while the material has been retained, sure, but for now that possibility can go on the back burner.
- I asked Shailendra and he said he "checked it minutely. Not a single chapter of Karuna Aur Kranti is taken from Shiksha Mein Kranti. करूणा और क्रांति has nothing to do with education. Publisher made a mistake in printing the source title". -- doofus-9 07:00, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
A couple of other small matters: we can assume that there were not two sets of compilers, editors etc working on this small book, as the pub info suggests, so one set is likely wrong.
The other matter is that there was previously in the wiki's smaller coverage of Diamond's edition a different ISBN. In fact, it was the ISBN-13 (9798128809957) that corresponds to the 2012 edition's ISBN-10, so i just changed it. It does suggest the existence of a different edition / printing though. -- doofus-9 03:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Shailendra's e-book has the same chapter titles as above, but in the following order: 1-6-2-3-4-5-7.--DhyanAntar 16:20, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
OshoWorld has 6 audios.--DhyanAntar 07:41, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Dates and Places info has come from Jagdish, image right and text version below. Note that the discourses are not entirely in chronological order. If they were put in chrono order, they would be the same as Shailendra's e-book mentioned above.
- 1. Nov 24 1969 pm Gowalia Tank Maidan, Mumbai
- 2. Nov 25 1969 pm Gowalia Tank Maidan, Mumbai
- 3. Nov 26 1969 pm Gowalia Tank Maidan, Mumbai
- 4. Nov 27 1969 pm Gowalia Tank Maidan, Mumbai
- 5. Nov 28 1969 pm Gowalia Tank Maidan, Mumbai
- 6. Nov 25 1969 am Birla Kreeda Kendra, Mumbai
- 7. Nov 29 1969 am Birla Kreeda Kendra, Mumbai
And venues will be understood to confirm that this is not a meditation camp in the usual sense. It is not a "retreat" at an isolated exotic location with an all-day focus on meditation, with attendees committed to a days-long process, no no. Attendees could be screened and charged at Birla Kreeda but not at an urban open field. So no need to entertain that possibility any more. -- doofus-9 08:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Order of chapter from Jagdish is the same as in 1975 and 2012 book editions.--DhyanAntar 13:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Note that this concern about a camp relates to words no longer in the article page, that the talks for K&K are "said variously to have been given in Mumbai and at a meditation camp". These words were deleted when it became clear that there could not have been a camp.
But views change or evolve . . . clear today, murky tomorrow . . . In the 1969 Timeline, before any events relating to K&K have been entered, we find on Nov 25 not just one more event but two, and both at Birla Kreeda no less, reproduced here:
| 25 Nov 1969 | Birla Kreeda Kendra, Chowpatti, Bombay | camp | Meditation Camp Bombay 1969 ** | |
| 25 Nov 1969 | Birla Kreeda Kendra, Chowpatti, Bombay | interview | Hindi | "Dynamics of Meditation ~ 15" (Appendix 3) ** |
And the Camp link leads to a bona fide event there: "Floating and Dying Meditation (Bahana aur Mritana), introduced in Dwarka camp [end of October], given final form in Chowpatti, Mumbai, at the Birla Kreeda Kendra".
So this is likely where the idea of the talks for K&K having been given at a camp has arisen. But it looks safe to say that this was a separate event, just the same day and place. So will throw the K&K discourses in the Timeline with them, all one big happy family. -- doofus-9 07:25, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, Appendix 3 is a part of discourse in that day (Karuna Aur Kranti ~ 02) - i consulted with Eng. and Hindi texts, i.e. compared them. So, i removed this erroneous event (Dynamics #15).--DhyanAntar 17:50, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Extracts from Shailendra's PDF text:
Ch.1: first sutra, most likely evening talk. "Today I would like to talk on this thread first, where the man has gone wrong. The first sutra I want to say to you is that man has not dared to be natural and natural, that has become his basic mistake. Man has tried to be something else that it is, animal is animal, bird is bird, plant is plant. If there are thorns in a rose, then it does not remain in the trouble of how I should be without thorns. He also accepts his thorns, also accepts his flower. His acceptance is not opposed to thorns and love to flowers. His acceptance includes both thorns and flowers. That's why Rose is happy, because he doesn't have to bite any limbs. No bird denies one of its wings, does not accept one wing. And no animal accepts his life by breaking it in half, he accepts it completely. The man has not accepted life as fully as he has got. He accuses her and says if life should be like this, I will accept it. The man suffers from a mad desire to be something else."
Ends by "And there are two to three information regarding tomorrow morning, because tomorrow morning eight to nine (means hours) friends are gathering at the Birla Sports Center for meditation. There, we will use some experiments to make meditation happen. (Reference to ch.2) Then there will be those people who are not eager to listen, eager to go somewhere. There will be nothing more. There will be some experiment. People eager to listen will not come there. Only those people who have the agility to go somewhere... Come quietly Do not talk there and sit quietly. According to the information that I will give, we will use it in the morning. Whatever questions you have, will write it down. The questions regarding meditation will be written in the morning. The questions that will be related to the discussions of the evening will be written by evening."
Ch.2: experiments + meditation in morning.
Ch.3: second sutra, most likely evening talk. "I was saying yesterday that we did not accept the natural form of man. (Reference to ch.1) The second source wants to tell you that since we did not accept the natural form, we have created an unnatural form by placing rock on the waterfall... Today I want to talk to you about the second sutra, because the great compassion that is needed on a human being, this compassion can only be free from oppression. Because repression itself has made humans cruel, harsh, unhappy and victimized. Daman has filled man with violence, reprisal and not knowing how many diseases."
In the end: "So I would like to tell you tomorrow in the third sutra that the senses go out so much, go out so much, and allow the senses to come in so much that the distance between the outside and the inner is finally fallen. As long as the distance between the outside remains, the joy of fullness of life cannot be available. Till then the stone is placed on our chest. I said this second thread.
Some friends have got questions, I will talk to them gradually. Friends who want to come for meditation tomorrow morning, they should take a bath, put on fresh clothes and come silent and silent while coming from home, and do not talk any place, do not use any words, come quietly and sit Go. Come just before eight o'clock. Today some people arrived a little later. Then the thing is complete, then they will have difficulty understanding it. Arrive at exactly five to ten minutes before eight. Not after eight. Come before eight, meditation will be used from eight to nine. Here I have asked some questions regarding meditation, I will talk there. There will be talk in relation to the discussions of evening."
Ch.4: third sutra, most likely evening talk. "My belief is that instead of creating a society, we have become a museum. And there is also a deep sorrow in the depths of man that all its naturalness has been lost and it is locked in the dock. Today I would like to talk a little bit on the third thread. But we will say, where are we closed? Are we free? Birds and animals are closed in the museum, where are we closed? But have you ever experienced that you are free and not locked? Certainly there are no iron bars, but iron bars can be broken. There are such scenes, which are not visible, cannot be broken, and are stronger than iron pieces!" "Today I want to say the third sutra that children have to be freed from the past, so that they can become free citizens of the future. But we are all tied back! And there are moments in a person's life, which I call Moments of Exposure. As the camera is exposed. Pressed a click and the camera opened and in a moment that went inside it sat inside, the film caught on. Similarly, there are moments of exposure in the mind of a man, when his mind opens and grabs some things." Ends: "And almost the man has become a liar. All mankind has become a handmade, wooden, crooked man. There is no soul inside, because the soul is likely to arise from infinite joint. I will talk to you tomorrow in this regard. (Reference to ch.5) Those friends who come to meditate in the morning, arrive just before eight o'clock, take a bath and walk silently from home, and do not even talk there."
Ch.5: most likely evening talk. "We should also teach life something which does not focus on the head. We should also learn some other things that bind the body in personality, bring it to all parts. The soul should not remain in the head, it should be in every particle. The soul must enter the weeping. And if a person enters a soul in his entire life, if he touches his hand too, the soul will know. If we touch his feet too, the soul will know. His soul would be spread in the molecule of his whole body, his soul would not have shrunk. And then he will not say that I am not a foot, I am a head. He will say, I am all this, I am the sum of all this. And he will live this whole joint. But we never lived like this."
"Today I have three sources for the transformation of life: First, the meaning of the transformation of life is to understand properly what is the foundation and what is the peak... Second thing I said, do not let the head get heavy... And the third thing is important to keep in mind that the doors of our personality, the senses, need their training. There is a need to make your ear even deeper, and able to hear deeper, so that its music can also be known if we move. There is a need to make the taste so subtle that when we eat food, the food that is visible in the macro, should not be taken into consideration, the vast, subtle hidden in that macro is also known." In the end: "Many questions have gathered. Tomorrow I will discuss all these questions." (Reference to ch.6)
Ch.6: q/a. Starts by "In the discussion of the last four days, many questions have been asked by friends. I will try to answer as many questions as possible."
Ch.7: q/a, last talk. Starts by "We were using meditation for the last four-five days and were also trying to understand meditation. Many questions have been asked in that regard. Today, it is necessary to consider those questions on the last day."
So, these chapters are in choronological order and given during 6 days with morning meditations on 2nd, 3rd, 4th days and most likely on 5th day too. The same order of chapter is in Eng.translation Compassion and Revolution.
Osho.com has the same order of chapters in audio and library sections, but titles of audios #2-6 are incorrect. 7th audio of osho.com is unavailable on OshoWorld.--DhyanAntar 13:00, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
The 1975 Edition
The 1975 pub date is not explicit, but the copyright date is 1975 and that is likely good enough. Then we have the back cover, which lists five books as "New Publications" which are also on another list, the back cover of a book published in 1977. This second list purports to be of the publications of Om Rajneesh Dhyan Kendra Prakashan, Bombay but includes these five titles from Sagardeep. Whether these two centers were co-existing and co-operating or Om was Sagardeep's successor or there was some other relationship story remains to be seen.
And the chapter titles seem to remain more or less the same throughout the years. -- doofus-9 07:41, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
