Talk:Kya Sove Tu Bavri (क्या सोवे तू बावरी): Difference between revisions

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[[Image:Uc5.jpg|200px]]- This page is under construction
===Current Understanding===
{| class="wikitable"
! event !! audio,<br>OshoWorld !! audio,<br>Osho.com !! 1980, 1990 and 2009 book ed. (*1) !! Shailendra's PDF !! Oshoworld e-book !! Osho.com library !! Oshoganga !!Dates & Places
|-
| [[Kya Sove Tu Bavri ~ 01]] || #1 || 1. युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा || 2. युवा-क्रांति की रूप रेखा<br>missing first two paragraphs and last 4 questions<br>1 Feb 1969, seminar, Bombay, at the residence of Ishwar Bhai (*1) || 1. युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा<br>some small questions untranscribed as well as last 4 questions (OW audio from 45:12) || 1. (no title) (p.1-11)<br>missing last 4 questions<br>date is the same as in 1980ed. || 1. युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा || 1. (no title)<br>missing last 4 questions<br>date is the same as in 1980ed. || 1 Feb 1969, a residence of Ishwar Bhai, [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|-
| [[Kya Sove Tu Bavri ~ 02]] || #2 || 2. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार || 3. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार<br>24 Feb 1969, Bombay, K. E. M. Hospital (*1) || 2. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार || 2. (no title) (p.11-23)<br>date is the same as in 1980ed. || 2. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार || 2. (no title)<br>date is the same as in 1980ed || 24 Feb 1969, King Edward Memorial Hospital, [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|-
|  || #3 || 3. मन से मुक्ति<br>missing 3 sentences of question, talk starts with answer || 4. मन से मुक्ति<br>no date stated (*1) || 3. मन से मुक्ति || 3. (no title) (p.23-34) || 3. मन से मुक्ति || 3. (no title) ||
|-
|  || #4 before 1:12:04<br>missing first 2,5 sentences || 4. विश्वास नहीं—स्वानुभव (*2) || 5. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव<br>missing first 2,5 sentences<br>no date stated (*1) || 4. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव || 4. (no title) (p.35-51)<br>missing first 2,5 sentences || 4. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव || 4. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव ||
|-
|  || #4 from 1:12:04<br>(first seconds can be from other talk)<br>last 16 sec is a part of other talk || 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति ||  || 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति<br>missing last question (OW audio from 1:51:55)<br>beginning can be incomplete ||  || 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति<br>beginning can be incomplete<br>contains additional last question available on audio and missed in Shailendra's PDF || 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति<br>missing last question<br>beginning can be incomplete ||
|-
|  || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur'' #6 || ''Yuvak Aur Yaun'' 1. यौन ः जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम ||  || 6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता is middle part (q.2-4) of ''Yuvak Aur Yaun'' PDF 1. यौन : जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम (*3) ||  ||  ''Yuvak Aur Yaun'' 1. यौनः जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम || 6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता<br>incomplete (*3) ||
|-
| [[Kya Sove Tu Bavri ~ 05]] ||  || 6. "Audio Not Available" || 1. निजता की घोषणा<br>27 Nov 1969, Bombay (*1) || 7. निजता की घोषणा || 5. (no title) (p.51-74)<br>date is the same as in 1980ed. || 6. निजता की घोषणा || 7. निजता की घोषणा || 27 Nov 1969, [[wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|}
(*1) Source of dates and notes on incompleteness of text is 1980 edition. 1990 and 2009 ed. Have the same chapter titles as 1980 ed. Except hyphen in second title ("युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा").
(*2) Duration 118min which stated on osho.com is incorrect because this duration corresponds joined talks 4 and 5, but they are clearly separated.
(*3) These two sources have incomplete text of the event: it is q.2-4 (of 5) of the event, i.e. middle part.
===Deliberations===
There are a few difficulties in trying to nail down solid info regarding this book. In many such cases, it is because there is little info. That is only partly so with ''Bavri''. Here, the main difficulty is an inconsistency of data, starting with the most basic, how many discourses are there? Well, different sources say different things. Most audio sites offer just four mp3s. Osho World and osho.com, which generally have a decent credibility in this basic accounting, offer seven, but with twists and turns.  
There are a few difficulties in trying to nail down solid info regarding this book. In many such cases, it is because there is little info. That is only partly so with ''Bavri''. Here, the main difficulty is an inconsistency of data, starting with the most basic, how many discourses are there? Well, different sources say different things. Most audio sites offer just four mp3s. Osho World and osho.com, which generally have a decent credibility in this basic accounting, offer seven, but with twists and turns.  
:Since the text on this discussion page was first written, decent info on the Rebel 1990 book edition has come along. Comments integrating this new info follow the table, indented. <small>-- 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
:Since the text on this discussion page was first written, decent info on the Rebel 1990 book edition has come along. Comments integrating this new info follow the table, indented. <small>-- 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)</small>

Revision as of 15:46, 3 July 2020

- This page is under construction

Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld
audio,
Osho.com
1980, 1990 and 2009 book ed. (*1) Shailendra's PDF Oshoworld e-book Osho.com library Oshoganga Dates & Places
Kya Sove Tu Bavri ~ 01 #1 1. युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा 2. युवा-क्रांति की रूप रेखा
missing first two paragraphs and last 4 questions
1 Feb 1969, seminar, Bombay, at the residence of Ishwar Bhai (*1)
1. युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा
some small questions untranscribed as well as last 4 questions (OW audio from 45:12)
1. (no title) (p.1-11)
missing last 4 questions
date is the same as in 1980ed.
1. युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा 1. (no title)
missing last 4 questions
date is the same as in 1980ed.
1 Feb 1969, a residence of Ishwar Bhai, Bombay
Kya Sove Tu Bavri ~ 02 #2 2. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार 3. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार
24 Feb 1969, Bombay, K. E. M. Hospital (*1)
2. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार 2. (no title) (p.11-23)
date is the same as in 1980ed.
2. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार 2. (no title)
date is the same as in 1980ed
24 Feb 1969, King Edward Memorial Hospital, Bombay
#3 3. मन से मुक्ति
missing 3 sentences of question, talk starts with answer
4. मन से मुक्ति
no date stated (*1)
3. मन से मुक्ति 3. (no title) (p.23-34) 3. मन से मुक्ति 3. (no title)
#4 before 1:12:04
missing first 2,5 sentences
4. विश्वास नहीं—स्वानुभव (*2) 5. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव
missing first 2,5 sentences
no date stated (*1)
4. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव 4. (no title) (p.35-51)
missing first 2,5 sentences
4. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव 4. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव
#4 from 1:12:04
(first seconds can be from other talk)
last 16 sec is a part of other talk
5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति 5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति
missing last question (OW audio from 1:51:55)
beginning can be incomplete
5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति
beginning can be incomplete
contains additional last question available on audio and missed in Shailendra's PDF
5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति
missing last question
beginning can be incomplete
Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur #6 Yuvak Aur Yaun 1. यौन ः जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम 6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता is middle part (q.2-4) of Yuvak Aur Yaun PDF 1. यौन : जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम (*3) Yuvak Aur Yaun 1. यौनः जीवन का ऊर्जा-आयाम 6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता
incomplete (*3)
Kya Sove Tu Bavri ~ 05 6. "Audio Not Available" 1. निजता की घोषणा
27 Nov 1969, Bombay (*1)
7. निजता की घोषणा 5. (no title) (p.51-74)
date is the same as in 1980ed.
6. निजता की घोषणा 7. निजता की घोषणा 27 Nov 1969, Bombay

(*1) Source of dates and notes on incompleteness of text is 1980 edition. 1990 and 2009 ed. Have the same chapter titles as 1980 ed. Except hyphen in second title ("युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा").

(*2) Duration 118min which stated on osho.com is incorrect because this duration corresponds joined talks 4 and 5, but they are clearly separated.

(*3) These two sources have incomplete text of the event: it is q.2-4 (of 5) of the event, i.e. middle part.


Deliberations

There are a few difficulties in trying to nail down solid info regarding this book. In many such cases, it is because there is little info. That is only partly so with Bavri. Here, the main difficulty is an inconsistency of data, starting with the most basic, how many discourses are there? Well, different sources say different things. Most audio sites offer just four mp3s. Osho World and osho.com, which generally have a decent credibility in this basic accounting, offer seven, but with twists and turns.

Since the text on this discussion page was first written, decent info on the Rebel 1990 book edition has come along. Comments integrating this new info follow the table, indented. -- 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
~ Osho World's audiobook offering ~ ~ Shailendra's e-book ~ ~ osho.com's audiobook offering ~ ~ Rebel 1990 book edition ** ~
1. युवा क्रांति की रूप रेखा (53min)

2. पहले विचार फिर निर्विचार (54min)

3. मन से मुक्ति (61min)

4. विश्वास नहीं-स्वानुभव (116min)

5. संन्यास और अंतस क्रांति

6. ध्यान है: भगवत्ता

7. निजता की घोषणा

1. युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा

2. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार

3. मन से मुक्ति

4. विश्वास नहीं--स्वानुभव

5. संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति

6. ध्यान हैः भगवत्ता

7. निजता की घोषणा

1: युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा (54min)

2: पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार (54min)

3: मन से मुक्ति (62min)

4: विश्वास नहीं—स्वानुभव (118min)

5: संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति (44min)

6: Audio Not Available

 

2. युवा क्रांति की रूप रेखा . . . . . page 31

3. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार . . page 45

4. मन से मुक्ति . . . . . . . . . . . .page 61

5. विश्वास नहीं—स्वानुभव . . . . page 77

 

 

1. निजता की घोषणा . . . . . . . . . page 1

The numbers after the discourse titles at osho.com are timings in minutes, and the first four correspond fairly well to timings at other audio sites. The fifth, who knows. Meanwhile, what are these zeros? It will be noticed that the five titles of o.com correspond fairly well with those of OW's first five. But what of their 6 & 7? And where DO these extra discourses come from, especially given that even OW in its free download section only offers four? Hmmm.

** With the addition of the info from the Rebel 1990 TOC, we have a few more wrinkles. The five titles that agree so well between the two audiobook offerings are not all here, with the last one replaced by one of the two found only at OW. That one has been made the first chapter, with the rest bumped along behind it. The new one is twice as long as each of the others except possibly what is now the fifth. The book's total page count is not known, was just an estimate, but i will try to find out how long that fifth one is. It should also be approx twice as long, according to its audio timing info.
We might also wonder what might have been the reason, if any, for not including the audiobooks' chapter five, संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति, "sannyas and inner revolution". Likely the pub date of March 1990 would have been too early for any ideological shifts to have affected this level, and in any case, audiobook offerings would have been a later phenomenon, long after the book was published. But ya never know. -- doofus-9 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe we can approach this conundrum from another angle. There are free e-book pdfs of Bavri available as well; most are probably copied from Osho World's offering. Looking at that one, i found a few infobits at what i presumed to be the ends of chapters, indicating dates and locations. Excellent, as far as it goes! How far is that? Well ...

These pdfs do not have features like chapter titles or space indicating clear chapter ends, count the spaces and Bob's your uncle. No no no. So i scrolled slowly through and found, on p 11, 23 and 74 (of 74 total) three date and location infobits:

on p 11, words indicating a private home in Bombay, on Feb 1, 1969
on p 23, King Edward Memorial Hospital in Bombay, Feb 24, 1969
and on p 74, words indicating a dialog/conversation somewhere in Bombay, Nov 27, 1969

Osho.com's audio timings and the relative proportion of space taken by such "chapters" as are hinted at in the pdf might be sort of consistent if one takes the view that the first two pdf "chapters" correspond to the first two audios, and the last (p 23 to 74) corresponds to the total of the rest of the audio. (The math is: (54+54)/(54+54+62+118+44) ≈ 23/74.) In this view, the pdf rolls last three of the five audio chapters into one undifferentiated extended conversation. Making both that "chapter" and the whole book look like a kind of compilation, loose Q & A sessions of a certain vintage put together in a small book.

So perhaps the picture is not really so unclear, leaving aside the other two audio chapters, zero and zero / six and seven. Anyway, that's about all i could piece together so far. As with many Hindi titles, further resolution will depend mainly on a fluent Hindi speaker who has read the book and/or listened to the audios.

A small edition note about the Rebel edition. That info, such as it is, was found tucked away on a Jain library / bookseller site. Such orgs/places have respected Osho from the beginning as a legitimate and worthy commenter on spiritual matters, especially his books on their main man Mahavira. Thus, their sites occasionally will turn up books not found elsewhere, even old ones, since they don't move very quickly. -- Sarlo (talk) 10:26, 20 May 2014 (PDT)


Added TOC from Shailendra's e-book. It differs from OW'version in punctuation only, which in its turn - simplified.--DhyanAntar 05:17, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


The 1980 Rajneesh Foundation edition was added on the basis of the recent publications list of Rahiman Dhaga Prem Ka (रहिमन धागा प्रेम का), published in July 1980. In that list, it was referred to as a "pocket edition". -- doofus-9 18:36, 12 November 2017 (UTC)


Osho.com library gives 1969 year of talks in its Copyright claim.--DhyanAntar 07:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Further Complicated Information

Shailendra has offered a long explanation about what has happened with Bavri's chapters and discourse titles. It relates not just to titles shifting from ch 3 to ch 5 but from Bavri to other books, even throwing in a general cultural background ...

Note: In 1960-70 it was illegal to have a tape recorder in India. One has to have a license to use even a bicycle and radio. In those days huge spools were used instead of cassettes. Spools could record 4-6 hours of audio. It was necessary to keep the recorder hidden from the public, therefore no announcements were made, eg date, place, topic of discourse. Later on things would occasionally get mixed up.
The source of much of the confusion with this book is one of those tape mix-up cases. The "extra-long" 4th discourse in o.com's audio list was actually two lectures rolled together misunderstood as one. This mistake persisted in the 1990 Rebel book as well, as the 5th chapter. The last part of this audio is not part of this talk so it has been separated as #5 in later editions.
This tape did triple-duty as it happens, since the same part separated out as #5 was also used as Chal Hansa Us Des ch #7, in earlier editions of that book. Chal Hansa has also offered another chapter that has been deemed more appropriate for Bavri, #6 in both.
See the table below for an attempt at a more organized version of these facts. -- doofus-9 04:38, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Changes in Bavri in different formats and editions over the years
audio no. old book middle era books latest changes in 2016
1 2 1 1
2 3 2 2
3 4 3 3
4 5 4 4 (Last part of audio is not part of this talk, so separated as #5)
- 1 (audio missing) 5 7
- - - 5 (Last part of audio #4, which also served as Chal Hansa Us Des #7, now removed from there)
- - - 6 (Previously Chal Hansa Us Des #6, now moved here)

media status

In the first table, I added the duration to column "Osho World's audiobook" (for the 4 free mp3s on offer), brought "osho.com's audiobook" up to date to 2018-12-06, and changed the order of the last column "Rebel 1990 book", to reflect correspondence between chapter titles.

I don't understand the last table because I don't understand the relation with the first table. Can they maybe be merged into one, with clarifying headers?

My question from the dark: am I right in concluding that it would be fair to have 5 events in this series ? :

  • the original events 1, 2, and 3, plus the first part of 4 as event "4" and the last part of 4 as event "5"
  • audio 4 should be split up in two
  • event-wise, Chal Hansa Us Des #6 and #7 should remain part of that series

Problem:

  • osho.com audio 5 is called संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति (Sannyas and End-Revolution), the same as Chal Hansa Us Des #07. That does not fit with the idea that osho.com audio 4 is actually 2 parts, of which the second half is that chapter 5... Or would that be double somehow?

Please correct me where I am wrong. --Sugit (talk) 15:40, 6 December 2018 (UTC)


My understanding is that this thing is too difficult to understand :-)

Gödel says there will always be questions that cannot be answered within any logical axiomatic system. This book's imponderables may be one of them. But to give it a try, to answer these kinds of nail-it-down questions, we would need at least to ask our knowledgeable source more questions, because there still are things that don't add up, besides the Chal Hansa duplication.

The problem that the duplication creates is partly one of categorization, which would have to be addressed by you, namely, the unique event can be called Chal Hansa #7 or Bavri #5. Or Bavri #4.5, if you want to get strange, "Really", it was supposed to be Bavri #5 but it got miscategorized as Chal Hansa #7 AND lost in #4. Should it by virtue of its first (known) publication as CH #7 be forever thought of in that way -- the sacredness of First Editions -- or should "original intention" rule? If the latter, you're on a slippery slope where any change can be made and rationalized as "original intention", we're just fixing mistakes, etc, so i believe you're right to stick to First Editions.

Another thing that's incomplete for me is what is now Bavri's ch 7. There is no audio and source indicating its provenance, earlier than the Rebel 1990 edition, where it was ch 1. Why were these chapters shuffled around like this? When and where was the actual event? What to call it?

And a nagging feeling remains concerning ch 4: even after ch 5 is supposedly removed from ch 4, ch 4 is still twice as long as any other ch. Is it possible that ch 5 is not really from there and ch 4 still remains to be subdivided?

Since questions like this can still be asked, i would leave Bavri aside until they were answered, but if you prefer to press on and possibly change it later, you're welcome to do that. Those who do the work get to decide such things.

About merging the two tables, i would not, on the grounds that it would be too messy. But you may find a way that is satisfying.

Enough for today? -- doofus-9 08:00, 7 December 2018 (UTC)


Yes, absolutely. Genius that I am I created this revolutionary category for field "aude": "Availability unknown"  :-) --Sugit (talk) 16:21, 7 December 2018 (UTC)


Three events in Timeline do not match with chapter numbers in book, see images of date on main page: only first 3 chapters have dates.--DhyanAntar 07:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)