Talk:Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash (महावीर या महाविनाश)
Current Understanding
| event | audio, OshoWorld |
audio, Osho.com |
1975 book ed. | Shailendra's PDF | Oshoganga | Osho.com library | Other book editions | Dates & Places |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 01 | #1 | 1. मानवीय गरिमा के उदघोषक | 1. मानवीय गरिमा के उद्घोषक Chembur, Bombay, 13 Apr 1965 |
1. मानवीय गरिमा के उदघोषक | 1. मानव गरिमा के उदघोषक | 1. मानवीय गरिमा के उदघोषक | 13 Apr 1965 pm, Chembur, Bombay (*1) | |
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 02 | #2 | 2. अंतर्दृष्टि की पतवार | 2. अन्तर्दृष्टि की पतवार Jain Bhavan, Sion, Bombay, 13 Apr 1962 (*2) |
2. अंतर्दृष्टि की पतवार | 2. अंतर्दृष्टि की पतवार | 2. अंतर्दृष्टि की पतवार | 14 Apr 1965 am?, Jain Bhavan, Sion, Bombay (*2) | |
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 03 | #3 | 3. आत्म-दर्शन की साधना | 3. आत्म--दर्शन की साधना Sion, Bombay, 24 Apr 1964 (*3) |
3. आत्म-दर्शन की साधना | 3. आत्म-दर्शन की साधना | 3. आत्म-दर्शन की साधना | 24 Apr 1964 pm, Sion, Bombay (*3) | |
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 04 | #4 | 4. स्वरूप में प्रतिष्ठा | 4. स्वरूप में प्रतिष्ठा no date stated |
4. स्वरूप में प्रतिष्ठा | 4. स्वरूप में प्रतिष्ठा | 4. स्वरूप में प्रतिष्ठा | ≥ 1965?, Bombay and Poona? | |
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 05 | #5 first sentence incomplete |
5. व्यक्ति है परमात्मा first sentence incomplete |
5. व्यक्ति है परमात्मा Chowpatty, Bombay, 14 Apr 1965 |
5. व्यक्ति है परमात्मा | 5. व्यक्ति है परमात्मा | 5. व्यक्ति है परमात्मा | 14 Apr 1965 pm, Chowpatty, Bombay (*1) | |
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 06 | 6. असुत्ता मुनि | 6. असुत्ता मुनि (*5) no date stated |
6. असुत्ता मुनि (*5) | 6. असुत्ता मुनि (*5) | 6. असुत्ता मुनि (*5) | ≥ 1965?, Bombay and Poona? | ||
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 07 | #6 | 7. अंतस-जीवन की एक झलक | 7. अन्तस्--जीवन की एक झलक missing 4,5 paragraphs before last paragraph no date stated |
7. अंतस-जीवन की एक झलक | 7. अंतस-जीवन की एक झलक | 7. अंतस-जीवन की एक झलक | ≥ 1965?, Bombay and Poona? | |
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 08 | #7 first sentence and end incomplete |
8. जीवन-चर्या के तीन सूत्र missing first sentence, and end incomplete |
8. जीवन-चर्या के तीन सूत्र end incomplete |
8. जीवन-चर्या के तीन सूत्र end incomplete |
8. जीवन-चर्या के तीन सूत्र end incomplete |
≥ 1965?, Bombay and Poona? | ||
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 09 | #8 | 9. सत्य का अनुसंधान | 9. सत्य का अनुसंधान | 9. सत्य का अनुसंधान | 9. सत्य का अनुसंधान | ≥ 1965?, Bombay and Poona? | ||
| Mahaveer Ya Mahavinash ~ 10 | 10. अहिंसाः आचरण नहीं, अनुभव है | 10. अहिंसा: आचरण नहीं, अनुभव है | 10. अहिंसाः आचरण नहीं, अनुभव है | Mahaveer: Meri Drishti Mein (महावीर : मेरी दृष्टि में), 1971 ed., Appendix 1 (only first half of event) | ≥ 1965?, Delhi University, Delhi (*6) | |||
| Ahinsa Darshan ~ 01 | 11. अहिंसा-दर्शन | 11. अहिंसा-दर्शन | 11. अहिंसा-दर्शन | Ahinsa Darshan (अहिंसा दर्शन), 1966ed. | 1964 or 1965 | |||
| Sant Taaran Taran Jeevan Aur Darshan ~ 01 | 12. तारण तरण (short version) (*4) |
Sant Taaran Taran: Jeevan Aur Darshan (संत तारण तरण : जीवन और दर्शन), 1957ed. | 1954, place unknown |
- Notes
- (*1) Time of dates based on Letter written on 1 Apr 1965 xm.
- (*2) It is unlikely that Osho was in Bombay at that date as according to Letter written on 12 Apr 1962 he just returned from a trip. And Mahaveer Jayanti should celebrated in 1962 on 17 Apr. This talk as well as other talks of the series is most likely related to festivals on this occasion (at least ch.1, 3 and 5 give direct reference to it). As ch.5 has reference to ch.2 (as we think) so the date changed to 14 Apr 1964 am. It needs a confirmation on the date.
- (*3) This event dedicated to Mahaveer Jayanti and date of it comfirmed by A Hindu calendar (23-24 Apr 1964). Time "pm" based on reference of Osho on previous morning talk (Upasana Ke Kshan ~ 01).
- (*4) Here is text of short version. which was published in early edition of Sant Taaran Taran: Jeevan Aur Darshan. Most late edition has complete beginning of this event.
- (*5) Beginning of the audio not completely transcribed in all text publications.
- (*6) Source of place is Appendix 1 of Mahaveer: Meri Drishti Mein (महावीर : मेरी दृष्टि में) (1971 and 1974 ed.), where printed first half of event. It is said also that the discourse was given in the All India Ahinsa-symposium.
Deliberations
Times and places of discourses for this series are still largely unknown but Neeten's Osho Source Book has made a start, with three talks on Apr 13 and 14, 1965 in Mumbai. Somewhat arbitrarily, we shall assume them to be #1-3.
A fine variety of numbers of discourses and/or chapters can be found around the net. They arise from two orientations, audio and book, and within those two, subtler variations. For audio, there are either eight or nine discourses: eight at the freebie download sites and nine at Osho World's audiobook offering, the first nine of the titles in the TOC below. Tao Vision splits the difference and says they are offering nine but #6 is unavailable. Regarding the book(s), most sites offering the 2011 OMI edition say there are eleven chapters (the first eleven of the TOC) but one not only says there are twelve but provides all the chapter titles, and with page numbers. Now there's a TOC!
The mysterious twelfth discourse, titled Taran Taran Vani, may be a recycling or reworking of Taran Vani, said by Neeten to be Osho's first published discourse, from 1955. Sant Taran (Taran) was a Jain saint on whom Osho spoke on a number of occasions.
About the 2011 OMI edition, publisher status is attributed to Rebel by some booksellers. And the subtitle for the earlier Rebel edition is assumed to be the same as for the 2011, img is too small to completely verify that. It means, roughly, "Delay no more, now is the only time." -- Sarlo (talk) 23:30, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
- विषय सूची (TOC):
- 1. मानवीय गरिमा के उदघोषक
- 2. अंतर्दृष्टि की पतवार
- 3. आत्म-दर्शन की साधना
- 4. स्वरूप में प्रतिष्ठा
- 5. व्यक्ति है परमात्मा
- 6. असुत्ता मुनि
- 7. अंतस-जीवन की एक झलक
- 8. जीवन-चर्या के तीन सूत्र
- 9. सत्य का अनुसंधान
- 10. अहिंसा : आचरण नहीं, अनुभव है
- 11. अहिंसा-दर्शन
- 12. तारण तरण वाणी
Filling in a few more details from visits to the audiobook places: Osho.com says there are twelve discourses but only offer eight. Their missing ones are #6, 10, 11 and 12. Other than that, their titles align with the above. Osho World offers nine mp3's, with titles per 1-9 above. All of which is decently consistent. -- doofus-9 20:37, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Today adding the two TOCs from scans ... the text TOC above stands up well in comparison to them. (We can say it was derived from osho.com's book page and Exotic India Art, the sole supplier of ch 12, as that's who were found in a search just now.)
The comparison between the 1989 and 1994 hard copy editions shows a few points of interest:
- Only seven chapters in the 1989 compared to eleven in other times, but they are the first seven, and seem otherwise complete based on titles and page lengths. ¿Why not the whole lot?
- The publisher of the 1989 seems a bit irregular, considering the "usual gang" cited. Perhaps they were floating a new corporate entity that never really got off the ground. "Kinetic" was guessed; what it actually was, transliterated from the Devanagari, was "Kayanetik", which doesn't go anywhere in any language.
- The "phototypesetting" credit in 1989 was also a bit unusual, being assigned to two individuals rather than the usual corporate entity. That those same two (worthy) individuals were credited with the more normal "typing" in 1994 ... well, whether it was an experiment or a glitch we may never come to know.
And that's all for now. Till we meet again, doofus-9 17:26, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Hindi Books_Chronologic, Alphabetic, Subject wise list states 11 talks from 12-14 of April, 1965, Morning series, on Mahavir.--DhyanAntar 03:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
The info on dates from first edition:
- ch.1 - चेबूर, बबई, 13 Apr 1965
- ch.2 - जैन-भवन, सायन, बम्बई, 13 Apr 1962
- ch.3 - सायन, बम्बई, 24 Apr 1964
- ch.4 - (no data in the book)
- ch.5 - चौपाटी, बम्बई, 14 Apr 1965
- ch.6 - (no data in the book)
- ch.7 - (no data in the book)
First seven chapters should be first 7 events for this series. Our dates for 2nd and third events do not match with above data.--DhyanAntar 15:47, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Shailendra - Osho's Hindi books (source document) says: "11 talks, 1965-1968".--DhyanAntar 08:22, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Letter written on 1 Apr 1965 xm gives info on schedule of talks 13-14 Apr 1965. Place of morning talk on 13 Apr according to it is Poona. Bombay's program starts from evening of the same date. Osho's visit to Poona confirmed also by the later Letter written on 7 Apr 1965. So changed am to pm for first talk of the series.--updated.--DhyanAntar 11:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Extracts from text (of Shailendra's PDF):
Ch.1: "I am sad and joyful on this saintly remembrance day. I am sad that we remember Mahavira , but we have no love for Mahavira." "This afternoon I used to talk about a monk. There was a monk away in China." "And there is nothing better that I can pray on this sacred festival of today."
Ch.2: morning talk. "Just as when one is immersed in the memory of the supreme men, just as one is filled with the remembrance of His Holiness the symbol of men, something starts changing in him, something starts changing, something new starts in him. . So I will discuss Mahavira a little bit in the hope that in this brief moment of connection, in his remembrance of this little moment, any change is effected within you, any movement arises within you, any aspiration within you becomes aware, Some seeds begin to sprout inside you and the desire to get new life, real life, arises within you. It can be possible. This is possible for every human being. Every person has the same possibilities within himself, which we feel in Mahavir reached perfection. What has developed for Mahavira is like a seed in us. Therefore, no one curses their misfortune and no one should think that we are unable to rise to such heights. And no one should think that our work is one that we worship Mahavira. It is nobody's job to worship Mahavira. The task is to develop towards becoming a Mahavira. And if the worship of Mahavira is also meaningful, then in the same sense that we will be able to rise higher towards Mahavira, like Mahavira, through that worship respectively... So this morning I want you to say, Do not worship of Mahavir, sow your seed in the aspiration to become Mahavira and cause determination within myself that I can be like them."
Ch.3: starts by "On this memorial day of Lord Mahavir, I should say a few things about his life, I will enjoy it." "If non-cooperation with him - like I said this morning (reference to Upasana Ke Kshan ~ 01), Non-Cooperation - If Non-Cooperation with the mind of thoughts, do not cooperate with him. Thoughts should come, let us come, you do not cooperate. Stand yourself away, as if you are just a neutral watcher. Let the idea run, you keep watching silently, do not cooperate. Your cooperation is the power of thought." In the end: "If on this holy remembrance day of Mahavir Jayanti, one thing is born in your mind that you have to look inwards, then whole life can be meaningful." (A Hindu calendar confirmed Mahavir Jayanti celebration on 23-24 Apr 1964. Stated date in 1975 edition is 24 Apr 1964.)
Ch.5: starts by "Let me tell you a few things about Mahavira's birthday celebration, I will enjoy it." "Mahavir is the proof of what we can be, the evidence is Buddha, the evidence is Krishna. They are symbols of what every human can be. I think so - I said this morning (it seems reference to ch.2?) - I feel like when I look at you, I feel like a pile of seeds and every seed can be a tree, I think so. Like Mahavira is filled all over the land, but in the shape of seed. And if they want and the energy of resolve will awaken in them and fire ignite in them, then maybe their seeds also burst and trees are born from them. If Mahavira is a tree, then you are also the seed of the same tree. If this remembrance, the day of their memory, creates this feeling in you, if it creates a thought, if it creates a dream that what was possible for them, it can be possible for me too, then this event becomes a bliss Will go." "Yesterday I had to tell a story..."
Ch.9: starts by "I would be delighted if I say a few words to you in the memory of Lord Mahavira. I used to think, should I ask you about this?" and ends "On this auspicious occasion of Mahavir-Jayanti, I fulfill my words by saying these little things."
Ch.10: "Just in the afternoon I was saying. A person went and asked a Zen fakir whether you have achieved God. So that fakir said that if I say that the achievement has been done then those who know will laugh at me, because what was the achievement of the one who was never lost! If I say that I have not achieved, then you will return without knowing anything. And even then there will be loss."
--DhyanAntar 09:57, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
