Talk:Neti-Neti (नेति-नेति)

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First explorations and discoveries

Two sources attest to this title's being an über-title for the collection of the four component books, Osho World and Tao Vision, the latter giving them volume numbers, the former calling them Neti Neti Shunya Ki Naav and so on in its audiobook offerings.

Shunya Ki Naav is dated by a couple of sources at May 2-5, 1968, at a camp in Nargol, and has 7 discourses.

Satya Ki Khoj is more complicated and given two different dates by different sources, Jan 16-19, 1970 and Feb 25-27, 1969. It is possible that there are two series with that title, one incorporated into Neti-Neti and the other not. The winning candidate is the Feb '69 series, as its five discourses fit well into a typical camp format of one discourse the first night and two each day thereafter, and those dates would make it come in the same order as their appearance in Neti Neti. The camp for those dates was at Junagadh.

Re Sambhavnaon, Neeten's Osho Source Book refers to a number of sources which don't all agree but all start on Mar 20, 1969. It has 7 discourses, and the camp was at Matheran.

And it seems that Shunya Ke Paar was not at a camp, and Osho World is not consistent in linking it with Neti Neti, but Neeten has it aka Neti Neti, with four talks given at Rajkot on Mar 6-9, 1970.

Regarding its likely earlier publication with the longer title, there is not much to be found but what there is seems fairly reliable. There is an entry at Worldcat.org with that as the full title and G**gle Books has an entry for the same edition (1989, Tao Publishing), which is, at 432 pages, close to the 2001 Rebel edition's 439. Sannyas wiki too had an entry for this book earlier but the order was different, with the subtitle first; see Neti Neti: Kahun To Kisse Kahun, Sunta Kaun Hai? (नेति नेति: कहूं तो किससे कहूं, सुनता कौन है?) for details. That the 2001 book has all these same words but only in the cover image and clearly relegated to subtitle status there says fairly strongly they are the same book. Usage with the longer title is no longer current in most places but can still be found at one bookseller's site, with details identical to the old wiki entry. (Perhaps that was the source?) -- Sarlo (talk) 11:38, 2 August 2014 (PDT)


Shailendra has sent the info about the components of Neti-Neti at the bottom of the article page, thus getting fabled booklets Surya and Amantran included. (They also went on to "serve" in Path Ki Khoj, but that's another story.) -- doofus-9 23:02, 16 June 2017 (UTC)


Scans for the 1989 Tao edition have arrived now and have settled a few things. The TOC clearly establishes the order in which the book is arranged, at least for that edition. "Kahun To Kisse Kahun etc" is clearly just a subtitle. Page count of 432 is not given but assumed from previous info.

And as can happen, a couple more questions are raised, having implications for the component books involved:

1. Shunya Ki Naav (शून्य की नाव) seems to have seven chapters in its original form but only the six first are in N-N. We are inquiring what happened to the missing one.
2. Ch 19 below, or ch 1 in Shunya Ke Paar (शुन्य के पार), "कर्म, ज्ञान, भक्ति: मन के खेल", has a different last word in the current wiki page for SKP, जाल instead of खेल. Osho.com and Osho World have खेल on their pages for the book, and खेल makes sense to me, so will update that. -- doofus-9 16:46, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

TOC

शून्य की नाव
1. अकेलेपन का बोध
2. अज्ञान का बोध
3. रहस्य का बोध
4. जीवन का सहज स्वीकार
5. जीवन जीओ अतिरेक में
6. प्रेम संबंध नहीं, चित्त-दशा है
सत्य की खोज
7. परतंत्रता से सत्य की ओर
8. भ्रम से सत्य की ओर
9. श्रद्धा से सत्य की ओर
10. स्वप्न से सत्य की ओर
11. शून्य से सत्य की ओर
संभावनाओं की आहट
12. विरामहीन अंतर्यात्रा
13. चैतन्य का द्वार
14. विपरीत ध्रुवों का समन्वय संगीत
15. अपना-अपना अंधेरा
16. धारणाओं की आग
17. अंधे मन का ज्वर
18. संकल्पों के बाहर
शुन्य के पार
19. कर्म, ज्ञान, भक्ति: मन के खेल
20. ज्ञान: मार्ग नहीं, भटकन है
21. भक्ति: भगवान का स्वप्न सृजन
22. कर्म: सबसे बड़ा भ्रम
अन्य प्रबोधक प्रवचन (other enlightening discourses)
23. सूर्य की ओर उड़ान
24. सत्य के अज्ञात सागर का आमंत्रण

The cover and title don't correspond to each other. It is necessary to correct title to "नेति-नेति". --DhyanAntar 06:30, 19 July 2018 (UTC) -- Agreed, doofus-9 16:02, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

More on the missing chapter 7

Shailendra has also shared a lot of background regarding the mysterious missing ch 7 of Shunya Ki Naav (शून्य की नाव). That discourse has always been printed in Shunya Ki Naav but the audio was lost, which may have been the basis for leaving it out of Neti-Neti. A seeker who was at Nargol and recorded this talk has donated his tape, so perhaps this talk can be put back into the next edition. As is typical of many camps, the last discourse is an important one.

Shailendra wrote:

7th discourse of शून्य की नाव-- is not published in Neti-Neti. I don't know why.
But I remember very well, it was published in Shunya Ki Naav, because this book was edited by Niklank at Gadarwara. I used to help him, whatever I could do in my childhood. I still remember those typed sheets, and tape recorder with large spool.
3 days camp usually meant 7 talks. First talk was an introduction, general instructions given to seekers. 2nd, 4th, and 6th talks were on some Sutras + morning meditation, 3rd, 5th and 7th usually question-answers and night meditation. (Similarly a 7 days camp usually meant 15 talks and 8 days camp usually meant 17 talks.)
Talk # 7 is the last discourse in the meditation camp, in which Osho gave important instructions to seekers, what they have to do after returning to their homes. He started by saying:
शिविर के इस अंतिम मिलन में थोड़ी सी बात मुझे और आपसे कहनी है।
तीन दिन पहले हमारी जो अंतर्यात्रा शुरू हुई थी उसका आज अंतिम चरण है।
In this last meeting of the camp, I have to tell you few more things.
Today is the last step of the inner journey, which we started three days ago.
He finished the discourse saying-
तो आपने तीन दिन तक मेरी बातें सुनीं, उनके लिए बहुत-बहुत अनुगृहीत हूं। और अंत में सबके भीतर बैठे परमात्मा को प्रणाम करता हूं। मेरे प्रणाम स्वीकार करें।
So, I am very thankful to you for listening to my talks for these three days. And in the end, I bow down to the God residing in each one. Please accept my regards.
After saying this, he conducts the last meditation technique of the camp.

More on the last two chapters

Uc5.jpg
Uc5.jpg

Shailendra also created a table for all the chapters of Neti-Neti based on the idea that ch 7 really had been inserted, and that there were 25 chapters. It corresponded well with data already known about Neti-Neti and its four component books, and included their dates and places. Most of it is not needed here, but the lines relating to the last two chapters, the booklets, are reproduced:

ch source book ch in that book date place
23 Shunya Ke Paar (शून्य के पार) 4. कर्मः सबसे बड़ा भ्रम 9 Mar 1970 am Rajkot
24 booklet सूर्य की ओर उड़ान 9 Mar 1970 am** Bombay
25 booklet सत्य से अज्ञात सागर का आमंत्रण 9 Mar 1970 am** Unknown

Additionally, he wrote:

Talk # 23, 24, 25; all are given on same date in morning-- as printed in book NETI NETI, which cannot be correct.
Talk #23 is given on that date, as per the information provided in other book.
Talk # 24, is not given on that date, because third edition of #24 was printed in 1969. This discourse must have been delivered at least 3 - 4 years earlier.
Talk # 25 is not given on that date, because Second edition printed in January 1970 with name Bhagwan. So first edition must have been printed at least 2 years before.
Talk #24 was previously printed as a booklet सूर्य की ओर उड़ान Surya ki Or Udaan (third edition printed in 1969 mentions talk given at Bombay) Then as Neti-Neti-23, Then as पथ की खोज-6 Path Ki Khoj-6
Talk #25 was previously printed as a booklet सत्य से अज्ञात सागर का आमंत्रण Satya Ke Agyat Sagar Ka Aamantran (Second edition printed in January 1970 with name Bhagwan) Then reprinted as Neti-Neti-24 Then reprinted as पथ की खोज-7 Path Ki Khoj-7, Then got removed from it and at present printed as अमृत की दिशा-5 Amrit Ki Disha-5

Since Osho is not supposed to have taken the name/title of Bhagwan until early 1971 -- see Sw Yoga Chinmaya -- i asked Shailendra for some clarification. This he told me:

My hypothetical assumption:
Inside the booklet "Acharya Rajneesh" is printed. 1000 copies may have been sold in a year. Then name was changed. Osho must have asked to replace the cover. So the cover has new name "Bhagwan" in remaining 4000 copies. (Note the accuracy of N with Halant.) See the attachments:
Another evidence -- with the time passing, and replacement of cover, price is changed. See the price stamp.
Similar things happened in Poona-2 phase with name changes -- stickers were used.
In general if 3000 copies printed, 500 were made ready to be sold, rest 2500 were preserved as CUT and UNCUT books. When the time came, 500 were made ready again.

-- doofus-9 07:51, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

The former page with subtitle incorporated in the title

Once upon a time, the wiki entertained the idea that an edition was once published with the whole thing as title, thusly: Neti Neti: Kahun To Kisse Kahun, Sunta Kaun Hai? (नेति नेति: कहूं तो किससे कहूं, सुनता कौन है?). More and more, it has become clearer that such a published edition never really existed, just that it SEEMED to, based on a few misconceptions found around on the net.

So it has been cancelled. The Talk page of that ex-edition has been moved here for posterity. A couple of new notes follow.

Talk:Neti Neti: Kahun To Kisse Kahun, Sunta Kaun Hai? (नेति नेति: कहूं तो किससे कहूं, सुनता कौन है?)
2636 sml.jpg
Previously, the wiki had the title as "Kahoo To Kisse Kahoo Sunta Kon Hain Neti Neti," and it was hard to find anyone to dance with that beyond one bookseller. Now that a decent image has been found for the cover of the Rebel edition, some questions have been answered. The old image, at right, seems to be more or less the same as the new, just low-res. And the new image has been found in connection with the new simpler title. What seems to have happened is that all the words on the cover were taken to be the title. And though the subtitle words are much smaller (to the point of illegibility in the small image), they precede the title in the image, so they were put first in the wiki rendition, which likely took its cue from that one bookseller, who still does that, same transliteration and everything.
With a clearer idea of the actual subtitle words, further search found two sources for Tao's 1989 edition, though G**gle Books was especially hard to find with its idiosyncratic house transliteration. Neither GBooks nor Worldcat have a cover image but both have 1989 and Tao Publishing with the title now being used on this page. This establishes that the subtitle DID once have currency as a legitimate part of the title, but likely the old wiki version was already past that era. That version, and its associated bookseller version, give a pub date of 2003 for Kahoo To Kisse Kahoo but the just plain Neti Neti edition from Rebel was dated 2001 by Granthalaya.org, an Indian-based multi-library site, with this same cover, so it looks like much of those data were in error.
It could even be an error to include the Rebel edition -- which is really just plain Neti Neti -- in this page with the subtitle as part of the title, but it may be useful to have the info gathered in one place for comparison, so it is here. -- Sarlo (talk) 19:32, 2 August 2014 (PDT)

Update comments:

The full foaming title initially reported by the bookseller likely arose because the subtitle precedes "Neti Neti" on the cover. That confusion is likely what led to the adoption of the idea that it was still a legitimate part of the title, just following instead of preceding. In a way, this compounded the error.

Recently, Shailendra wrote to wiki editor Antar that the subtitle should not be considered part of the title. Today i checked the supposed outside sources mentioned above, Worldcat and G**gle Books, and could not find any GBooks ref to Neti Neti that would substantiate keeping this thing, and Worldcat turned up two hits with Kahun etc clearly relegated to subtitle status, and based on the 1989 Tao Pubs edition, so it looks like this little illusion is finished. -- doofus-9 17:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)