Talk:Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par (प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर)
|Oshoganga||Dates & Places|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 01||#1||1. प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर||1. प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर||1. प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर||8 Jun 1969 am, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 02||#2||2. समग्रता है द्वार||2. समग्रता है द्वार||1. समग्रता है द्वार||2. समग्रता है द्वार||1. समग्रता है द्वार||8 Jun 1969, 20:30, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 03||#3||3. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार||3. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार||2. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार||3. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार||2. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार||9 Jun 1969, 8:00, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 04||#4||4. तुलना-रहितता है द्वार||4. तुलना-रहितता है द्वार||3. तुलना रहितता है द्वार||4. तुलना-रहितता है द्वार||3. तुलना रहितता है द्वार||9 Jun 1969, 20:30, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 05||#5||5. ध्यान है द्वार||5. ध्यान है द्वार||4. ध्यान है द्वार||5. ध्यान है द्वार||4. ध्यान है द्वार||10 Jun 1969, 8:30, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 06||#6||6. साक्षीभाव है द्वार||6. साक्षीभाव है द्वार||5. साक्षी भाव है द्वार||6. साक्षीभाव है द्वार||5. साक्षी भाव है द्वार||10 Jun 1969, 20:30, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 07||#7||7. स्वयं के चित्त के प्रति जागरण||7. स्वयं के चित्त के प्रति जागरण||7. स्वयं के चित्त के प्रति जागरण||11 Jun 1969 am, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 08||#8||8. स्वयं की खोज||8. स्वयं की खोज||8. स्वयं की खोज||11 Jun 1969 pm, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 09||#9 (missing first 6min and end) (*1)||available as Cheti Sake To Cheti #04 धर्म और चिंतन||available as Cheti Sake To Cheti ch.4 धर्म और चिंतन||available as Cheti Sake To Cheti 4. धर्म और चिंतन||9 Jun 1969 om, Ahmedabad|
|Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par ~ 10||#10 (*2)||available as Cheti Sake To Cheti #05 जीवन है द्वार||available in addendum as ch.9 जीवन है द्वार, but incomplete||6. जीवन है द्वार
|available as Cheti Sake To Cheti ch.5 जीवन है द्वार||6. जीवन है द्वार
|10 Jun 1969 om, Ahmedabad|
(*1) This audio is also available as "Cheti Sake To Cheti #4", and that version is complete.
(*2) It seems this audio has untranscribed text in the end.
This book was first added on the basis of a significant new source, "Doc X", whose accuracy is not 100%. Thus, info was provisional. Later, it has come to look like this was one of Doc X's inaccuracies. The dates it attributed to Prabhu Mandir were Oct 30 to Nov 3, 1968, at a camp at Nargol GJ. Another similarly named series, Prabhu Ki Pagdandiyan (प्रभु की पगडंडियां), has come forward to take that slot, based on a more thorough source, Neeten's Osho Source Book. But Neeten's data at this point are largely raw and unprocessed, themselves gathered from many sources and not entirely consistent. As well, a partial e-book for Prabhu Mandir has been found which has some date and place info.
The series' existence was never in doubt, as there are various audio offerings, but its time and place info is still fairly uncertain. Below we will consider Neeten's data and the e-book to attempt to arrive at a best guess. Neeten's Appendix section has three relevant entries:
- Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar par. 10-13.06.1967. 10 talks. Chanda & Ahmedabad.
- Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar par. 31.10-03.11.1968. 6 talks. Nargol camp.
- Prabhu Ki Pagdandiyaan. 31.10-03.11.1969. 7 talks. Nargol camp.
Since the second and third entries have the exact same days, just different years, one may well raise one's eyebrows. In fact, the 1969 dates conflict with both a well-known camp at Dwarka, Main Mrityu Sikhata Hun (मैं मृत्यु सिखाता हूं), and with Neeten's extensive text in his Jabalpur section. That text seems reliable as it incorporates several sources, and it has the Pagdandiyan talks at the 1968 Nargol camp, from Oct 30 to Nov 3, exactly the dates of Doc X, just a different Prabhu series. FWIW, Doc X does not mention Pagdandiyan at all.
It looks sensible to put Pagdandiyan into the 1968 Nargol camp but where does that leave poor Prabhu Mandir? Possibly not too lost, it turns out. There are still salvageable bits in the other two entries: The first has ten talks in four days at two wildly separated locations. It is clear that it is just partial. The second has SIX talks somewhere somewhen. I submit that, leaving out the info that doesn't fit, these entries together can be made to work with the info from the e-book to produce a somewhat coherent picture, possibly even not far from complete. Below are the e-book data, with chapter titles transliterated, and pages where found:
- Ch 1 Samagrata Hai Dwar p 1 ... Ahmedabad Jun 8, 1969 ratri p 19
- Ch 2 Pravah Shilata Hai Dwar p 19 ... Ahmedabad Jun 9, 1969 subaha p 34
- Ch 3 Tulana Rahitta Hai Dwar p 34 ... Jun 9, 1969 ratri p 53
- Ch 4 Dhyan Hai Dwar p 53 ... Ahmedabad Jun 10, 1969 subaha p 68
- Ch 5 Sakshi Bhav Hai Dwar p 68 ... Ahmedabad Jun 10, 1969, shama p 85
- Ch 6 Jeevan Hai Dwar p 85 ... ends (prematurely?) at p 97, no date or place
These data collectively place the first five chapters at Jun 8-10, 1969 in Ahmedabad. (Location for ch 3 is not given but it can hardly be anywhere else). Ch 6 is anyone's guess, but it would not be unreasonable to suppose Ahmedabad, leaving four other discourses to be placed. Remembering Neeten's first Appendix entry, "10-13.06.1967. 10 talks. Chanda & Ahmedabad," we can match up that entry's four days with the four discourses that need dates and put them in that other place, Chanda (now known as Chandrapur, in Eastern Maharashtra). That looks like a good enough fit to be at least provisional, though the data certainly are fragmentary.
We cannot leave this without acknowledging another matter which makes it understandable why separating the two Prabhus might be problematic, revolving around titles and themes. "Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par" means, "On the Door to the Temple of God." That the theme is a strong one is reflected in the chapter titles above: "Totality is a door," "Meditation is a door," "Life is a door" and so on.
Then we have four of the seven chapter titles of Pagdandiyan taking the form of "First door to the temple of God: Compassion," "Second door to the temple of God: Friendship," and so on. The titles' thematic resonance is so strong, one could be forgiven for thinking they are the same book, especially given all the confusion with dates. And maybe they really are the same book! But in the end, the audio sites are unanimous in considering them as different, and they at least have access to the original words. Tao Vision, the most thorough arbiter of multi-volume series and such things, has Pagdandiyan as a seven-discourse series and a subset of Sadhana Path (साधना पथ) but Prabhu Mandir is all on its own, with ten discourses. -- updated doofus-9 (talk) 16:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Oshoganga gives the same dates for first 5 chapters as in OW e-book, but date of ch.6 is 16 Jun 1967 Ahmedabad.--DhyanAntar 09:36, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
And looking at the audiobook offerings from Osho World and osho.com, we find a collection -- the same at both -- of eight audios, with many of the same titles as the e-book above, but not all. Such correspondences as exist are noted beside the titles.
- 1. प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर -- series title
- 2. समग्रता है द्वार -- e-book ch 1
- 3. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार -- e-book ch 2
- 4. तुलना-रहितता है द्वार -- e-book ch 3
- 5. ध्यान है द्वार -- e-book ch 4
- 6. साक्षीभाव है द्वार -- e-book ch 5
- 7. स्वयं के चित्त के प्रति जागरण -- new
- 8. स्वयं की खोज -- new
Between the e- and audio-books we have nine different titles, so still one missing somewhere, and still not entirely clear on the order. -- doofus-9 07:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Shailendra stated that: "Previously this book had 10 discourses. Now only 8. 9th (titled as "जीवन है द्वार") is shifted to CHETI SAKAI TO CHETI SAKAI TO CHET #4 and 10th- i do not know where it is now." --DhyanAntar 08:58, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The Dates and Places image thing from Jagdish resolves some of the issues looked at above but throws other matters up into the air. Notes below.
- 1. Jun 8 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 2. Jun 8 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 3. Jun 9 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 4. Jun 9 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 5. Jun 10 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 6. Jun 10 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 7. Jun 11 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 8. Jun 11 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 9. Jun 9 1969 om Ahmedabad
- 10. Jun 10 1969 om Ahmedabad Q&A
This information seems as reliable as anything else encountered in connection with Prabhu Mandir, in that it is internally consistent and makes sense concerning the numbers, ie eight audio discourses offered, with two more intimate afternoon sessions wandering off somewhere else. The tenth is noted as having a "social" theme, so it did not fit with the rest or Cheti Sakai To Cheti either. In fact, these "intimate" settings offer another explanation besides poor sound quality of why audio numbers may disagree, that may possibly be applicable to many series.
And Prabhu Mandir #9's title is not found above in any previous information but an attempt is made in the D&P image to render it, and "Dharm Aur Chintan" is in fact what Cheti Sakai #4 is called, so this is a plausible destination. And since it is offered as part of osho.com's Cheti Sakai audiobook, better to leave it under that title in the Events dept and Timeline, but with the date as here.
One further significant merit of the Jun 8-11 1969 timetable for the whole thing is that it agrees closely, if not precisely, with the dates and place (Ahmedabad) given in the first e-book above. How bad can this be?
That all the talks are in Ahmedabad in one continuous series means we'll have to let Chanda go for now. Something may have happened there on those days in 1967, but perhaps nothing to do with Prabhu Mandir. We could do far worse than go with Jagdish's info at least provisionally. -- doofus-9 07:46, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Further to the above, Dilip has researched deeply into the text and audio versions of this series and provided a detailed analysis of what happened in relation to what . Those details are provided in the "media status" section below. Here, briefly, we can confirm eight talks on four consecutive days with talks morning and evening, and the last two talks going to Cheti Sake. Precise dates are not given in those sources, but they fit so well with Jagdish's info that we will run with that until further notice. -- doofus-9 20:10, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
OW has 10 mp3s, osho.com has 5 mp3s.
Dilip Sodha has compared the audio with the available texts. Conclusions:
- 1: PMKDP audio-discourses 1 to 8 of OshoWorld match perfectly with the PDF text of the books in question (see this online PDF).
- 1b: Also the audios 1 - 8 available at osho.com have been checked, they have corresponding discourses too. (Osho.com does not have audio #09 or #10.)
- 2: Discourse 9 and 10 match with the chapter 4 & 5 respectively of book "Cheti Sake To Chet" (see this online PDF).
- 3. From the contents of the talks and text it's clear that first 8 discourses are given at Ahmedabad consecutively in 4 days - morning talk followed by Q&A in the evening.
- 4. About this addendum, Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par (प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर) Addendum (Extra - ch.9 of previous edition (see this online PDF). Yes this is the 4th discourse of the series "Cheti Sake To Chet".
- 5. Online library records of osho.com match well with the discourses 1-8 for PKMDP and for discourses 9 & 10 for CSTC.
- 6. Records of OshoGanga appears to be partly correct and partly erroneous. Also it's incomplete for PKMDP.
Here are the detailed findings:
|Audio nr.||Book ch.||PDF pages||Analysis of Audio and PDF Text||Findings||osho.com library||oshoganga.|
|1||1||2 - 16||The discourse begins: " 'Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par' - before saying anything on this subject, it is necessary to know that - the door of God's temple is a wonderful door. It is not an ordinary door. And it is not the door of those temples whom we call temple." From 11:10 to 11:27 Osho says: "So today morning let us first understand that - where God's temple is not - then we may come to know where God's temple can be? If we know where his door is not - then we can search where his door is?" While concluding Osho says: "So today I say to you 'faith' is not the door. Tomorrow I will talk - what is the door? Whatever the questions in regards to my these talks, give it in writing. In the evening I will give replies - and it would be better as I said that give them in writing - so that there can be appropriate, complete talk. Evening there will be replies to your questions - tomorrow morning again I will talk, and every evening I will give replies to your questions."||Talk and Text match. This is a 1st morning talk of the series. In the end the Osho explains the format: "Talk in the morning followed by Q&A in the evening."||Ch. # 01 "Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par" (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||NIL|
|2||2||17 - 31||The discourse begins as usual address by Osho: 'Mere Priya Atman'. And the 1st line is: "In reference to the talk of the morning friends have asked many questions." Few more places Osho refers to the morning talk and before concluding he is saying: "Tomorrow morning 'will talk on another Sutra. Those questions which are left out - I will talk on them tomorrow evening."||Talk and Text match. From what Osho says it's obvious that this is a 1st day evening talk.||Ch. # 02 Samagrata Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||Disc. # 01 Samagrata Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to OshoGanga|
|3||3||32 - 44||From 05:57 to 06:11 in this talk Osho says: 'Yesterday I told that faith is not his door. Today I want to say, thought is his door. And thought is totally opposite direction of mind / psyche from faith.' While concluding from 57:26 to 58:54 Osho says: "In that 3rd step, we will think on that, 'no-thought' - meaning meditation (dhyan). First, 'faith' is not written on that door. And I told thought, and when we pass through 'thought', we will find - that is not written on that door. 'Thought' too, is not written on that door. On God's door it is also not written that - think and come inside. By thinking you will reach up to, outside the door - you can't get in. In 3rd step we will think, search what 'dhyan' is? - What is meditation? - What is 'non-thinking'? - Is 'non-thinking' written on his door? - That we will think, on 'non-thinking', on 'dhyan', in tomorrow morning's talk. And in fourth talk we will think - should we drop 'dhyan' too - couldn't that too, take us to the most inner most shrine? That can't take us there, too. Drop faith by thought. Drop thought by no-thought. Then drop no-thought too - what remains then is the state of 'SAMADHI'. It takes us there where God's house is. Whatever questions on today's talk, 'will answer in the evening."||Talk and Text match. From what Osho says it's obvious that this is a 2nd day morning talk. Also we can see from his talk that path to Prabhu-Mandir (SAMADHI) has 4 steps: 1. Faith 2. Thoughts (Doubts) 3. No-thoughts 4. God's House (SAMADHI). So it's very reasonable to conclude that this series at Ahmedabad - is of 4 days and 8 talks.||Ch. # 03 Pravah Sheelta Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||Disc. # 02 Pravah Sheelta Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to OshoGanga|
|4||4||45 - 60||Osho begins saying: "In reference to two days' talks, friends have asked many questions. One friend has asked: aren't my thoughts similar to the thoughts of M N Roy? Another friend has asked: whether I agree with the thoughts of Mao? Third friend has asked: whether there is any similarity between Krishnamurty's thoughts and mine? And these types of some more questions, friends have asked." The talk is concluded by Osho offering 'pranam' to God present in all.||Talk and Text match. From what Osho says it's obvious that this is a 2nd day evening talk.||Ch. # 04 Tulana-rahitata Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||Disc. # 03 Tulana-rahitata Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to OshoGanga|
|5||5||61 - 73||From 01:46 to 02:54 Osho says: "One who will think complete, he will realize in the end this too - whether by thinking, is it possible to know that which I don't know? And whether that which will be known by thinking - would be the truth? In regards to this I told few things yesterday morning. Process of thought leaves us after taking up to some extent on the path of 'Prabhu-Mandir'. And one who stops in the thought itself gets lost in 'darshan', in philosophy - but doesn't reach up to religion. One who stops on faith gets lost in blind-faiths - in superstitions. One stops on thought, gets lost in philosophies, in thought processes. But the one who goes beyond thought, reaches there - where the temple of 'dharma' (religion) is." At 55:04 Osho concludes: "DHYAN is entry into the door. I have entered into your house, but it is not reaching in you. And when we become one with 'Prabhu' then only it become possible to enter completely into 'Prabhu-Mandir'. So the third 'sutra' is 'dhyan' (meditation), witnessing. The door will open in this. But even then there is one hindrance. 'Prabhu is different, you are different. Reached in the temple - he is other - you are other. Truth has been seen. But the truth is there - you are here. Now if this distinction also gets broken, then only truth in its totality can be lived and known. The truth has been seen from outside - from far yet, the truth has been recognized from outside - from far yet, the truth itself is not been attained. Truth is not only to be known, truth is to be lived too. Truth is not only be seen, we have to become the truth too. Without oneself becoming 'PARMATMA' it is not possible to enter completely into 'GOD'. Will have to rise even above 'dhyan' (meditation).||Talk and Text match. From what Osho says it's obvious that this is a 3rd day talk on 3rd sutra 'DHYAN' - transcend this too, to enter 'Prabhu-Mandir'."||Ch. # 05 Dhyan Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||Disc. # 04 Dhyan Hai Dwar (Prabhu Mandir) link to OshoGanga|
|6||6||74 - 87||The discourse begins: "Based on trailing talks friends have asked many of questions....." 49:10 to 49:36 "Regarding that witnessing I told in the morning - do not ask that how to fight? Don't ask that how to drive away thoughts? Don't ask how to stop thoughts? This - don't even ask. Even asking this is wrong. Ask this - how to be awake? - how to observe? - how to recognize? - how to become witness? That I told in the morning - we will talk some more things, tomorrow morning." Before concluding Osho says: "Some more questions have left, we will talk on them tomorrow evening. In the morning, will talk on 4th 'sutra'. Tomorrow evening I will give your answers."||Talk and Text match. From what Osho says it's obvious that this is a 3rd day talk in the evening and he will talk on the 4th sutra next day morning (4th day).||Ch. # 06 "Sakshibhav Hai Dwar" (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||Disc. # 05 "Sakshibhav Hai Dwar" (Prabhu Mandir) link to OshoGanga|
|7||7||88 - 99||The discourse begins: "Witnessing is meditation. Meditating on what? - people ask. Meditation on nothing, but accepting with awareness - all that happens in and around your mind. There is no relation of meditation with any object, any subject, any statue, any picture, any name, any word. But we have been taught that meditation should be done on something. When meditation is of something, it won't be meditation, it will be concentration. And yesterday I told - concentration is not meditation (एकाग्रता ध्यान नहीं है - ekagrata dhyan naheen hain. - Osho refers to discourse 5 - in last line of page 65 in the PDF book)." At 51:18 Osho says: "Moon is in the sky; it's not trapped in well. To bring it out we are trying lot. By FAITH we want to bring it out - doesn't come out; by THOUGHT we want to bring it out - doesn't come out; by MEDITATION we want to bring it out...it comes out even then doesn't come out. And then we disappear in to NOTHINGNESS, and find that he has been out; already. It was never been trapped, it has been outside; always."||This is a 4th morning talk. In this Osho consolidates that Moon (PRABHU) has been free all around - appeared to have been trapped - can't be known by FAITH, THOUGHTS (DOUBTS) or MEDITATION (Non-thinking) - it has been the case already and one needs to be dissolved in to NOTHINGNESS (Shunyata) and be it.||Ch. # 07 "Swayam Ke Chitt Ke Prati Jagaran" (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||NIL|
|8||8||100 - 116||The discourse begins: "In regards to talks of four days, great many questions have been asked. In four days many questions have been left without answering. So today I will talk on small-small questions in short - so that much more answers you can get." Finally in conclusion Osho says: "I am very much grateful for having listened to these - my four days' talks - with so much peace, love and silence. And in the end I bow down to the God present within all. Please accept my PRANAM"||Concluding Q&A in the last evening of the trailing 4 days' talk. The series ends with this discourse.||Ch. # 08 "Swayam Ki Khoj" (Prabhu Mandir) link to osho.com||NIL|
|9||9||NIL||The audio content exactly matches with the text of the links of osho.com and OshoGanga.||This is a 4th discourse of the series "Cheti Sake To Chet".||Ch. # 04 "Dharm Aur Kranti" - of Cheti Sake To Chet" link to osho.com||Ch. # 04 "Dharm Aur Kranti" - of Cheti Sake To Chet" link to OshoGanga|
|10||10||NIL||The audio content exactly matches with the text of the links of osho.com and OshoGanga.||This is a 5th discourse of "Cheti Sake To Chet". And Osho Ganga showing this as 6th discourse of "Prabhu Mandir" - is apparently erroneous.||Ch. # 05 "Jeevan Hai Dwar - of Cheti Sake To Chet" link to osho.com||Disc. # 06 "Jeevan Hai Dwar - of Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar" link to OshoGanga|