Talk:Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par (प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर)
This book was first added on the basis of a significant new source, "Doc X", whose accuracy is not 100%. Thus, info was provisional. Later, it has come to look like this was one of Doc X's inaccuracies. The dates it attributed to Prabhu Mandir were Oct 30 to Nov 3, 1968, at a camp at Nargol GJ. Another similarly named series, Prabhu Ki Pagdandiyan (प्रभु की पगडंडियां), has come forward to take that slot, based on a more thorough source, Neeten's Osho Source Book. But Neeten's data at this point are largely raw and unprocessed, themselves gathered from many sources and not entirely consistent. As well, a partial e-book for Prabhu Mandir has been found which has some date and place info.
The series' existence was never in doubt, as there are various audio offerings, but its time and place info is still fairly uncertain. Below we will consider Neeten's data and the e-book to attempt to arrive at a best guess. Neeten's Appendix section has three relevant entries:
- Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar par. 10-13.06.1967. 10 talks. Chanda & Ahmedabad.
- Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar par. 31.10-03.11.1968. 6 talks. Nargol camp.
- Prabhu Ki Pagdandiyaan. 31.10-03.11.1969. 7 talks. Nargol camp.
Since the second and third entries have the exact same days, just different years, one may well raise one's eyebrows. In fact, the 1969 dates conflict with both a well-known camp at Dwarka, Main Mrityu Sikhata Hun (मैं मृत्यु सिखाता हूं), and with Neeten's extensive text in his Jabalpur section. That text seems reliable as it incorporates several sources, and it has the Pagdandiyan talks at the 1968 Nargol camp, from Oct 30 to Nov 3, exactly the dates of Doc X, just a different Prabhu series. FWIW, Doc X does not mention Pagdandiyan at all.
It looks sensible to put Pagdandiyan into the 1968 Nargol camp but where does that leave poor Prabhu Mandir? Possibly not too lost, it turns out. There are still salvageable bits in the other two entries: The first has ten talks in four days at two wildly separated locations. It is clear that it is just partial. The second has SIX talks somewhere somewhen. I submit that, leaving out the info that doesn't fit, these entries together can be made to work with the info from the e-book to produce a somewhat coherent picture, possibly even not far from complete. Below are the e-book data, with chapter titles transliterated, and pages where found:
- Ch 1 Samagrata Hai Dwar p 1 ... Ahmedabad Jun 8, 1969 ratri p 19
- Ch 2 Pravah Shilata Hai Dwar p 19 ... Ahmedabad Jun 9, 1969 suvaha p 34
- Ch 3 Tulana Rahitta Hai Dwar p 34 ... Jun 9, 1969 ratri p 53
- Ch 4 Dhyan Hai Dwar p 53 ... Ahmedabad Jun 10, 1969 suvaha p 68
- Ch 5 Sakshi Bhav Hai Dwar p 68 ... Ahmedabad Jun 10, 1969, shama p 85
- Ch 6 Jeevan Hai Dwar p 85 ... ends (prematurely?) at p 97, no date or place
These data collectively place the first five chapters at Jun 8-10, 1969 in Ahmedabad. (Location for ch 3 is not given but it can hardly be anywhere else). Ch 6 is anyone's guess, but it would not be unreasonable to suppose Ahmedabad, leaving four other discourses to be placed. Remembering Neeten's first Appendix entry, "10-13.06.1967. 10 talks. Chanda & Ahmedabad," we can match up that entry's four days with the four discourses that need dates and put them in that other place, Chanda (now known as Chandrapur, in Eastern Maharashtra). That looks like a good enough fit to be at least provisional, though the data certainly are fragmentary.
We cannot leave this without acknowledging another matter which makes it understandable why separating the two Prabhus might be problematic, revolving around titles and themes. "Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par" means, "On the Door to the Temple of God." That the theme is a strong one is reflected in the chapter titles above: "Totality is a door," "Meditation is a door," "Life is a door" and so on.
Then we have four of the seven chapter titles of Pagdandiyan taking the form of "First door to the temple of God: Compassion," "Second door to the temple of God: Friendship," and so on. The titles' thematic resonance is so strong, one could be forgiven for thinking they are the same book, especially given all the confusion with dates. And maybe they really are the same book! But in the end, the audio sites are unanimous in considering them as different, and they at least have access to the original words. Tao Vision, the most thorough arbiter of multi-volume series and such things, has Pagdandiyan as a seven-discourse series and a subset of Sadhana Path (साधना पथ) but Prabhu Mandir is all on its own, with ten discourses. -- updated doofus-9 (talk) 16:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
And looking at the audiobook offerings from Osho World and osho.com, we find a collection -- the same at both -- of eight audios, with many of the same titles as the e-book above, but not all. Such correspondences as exist are noted beside the titles.
- 1. प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर -- series title
- 2. समग्रता है द्वार -- e-book ch 1
- 3. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार -- e-book ch 2
- 4. तुलना-रहितता है द्वार -- e-book ch 3
- 5. ध्यान है द्वार -- e-book ch 4
- 6. साक्षीभाव है द्वार -- e-book ch 5
- 7. स्वयं के चित्त के प्रति जागरण -- new
- 8. स्वयं की खोज -- new
Between the e- and audio-books we have nine different titles, so still one missing somewhere, and still not entirely clear on the order. -- doofus-9 07:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- TOC from e-book from Shailendra:
- 1. प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर
- 2. समग्रता है द्वार
- 3. प्रवाह शीलता है द्वार
- 4. तुलना-रहितता है द्वार
- 5. ध्यान है द्वार
- 6. साक्षीभाव है द्वार
- 7. स्वयं के चित्त के प्रति जागरण
- 8. स्वयं की खोज
Shailendra also stated that: "Previously this book had 10 discourses. Now only 8. 9th (titled as "जीवन है द्वार") is shifted to CHETI SAKAI TO CHETI SAKAI TO CHET #4 and 10th- i do not know where it is now." --DhyanAntar 08:58, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
The Dates and Places image thing from Jagdish resolves some of the issues looked at above but throws other matters up into the air. Notes below.
- 1. Jun 8 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 2. Jun 8 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 3. Jun 9 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 4. Jun 9 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 5. Jun 10 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 6. Jun 10 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 7. Jun 11 1969 am Ahmedabad
- 8. Jun 11 1969 pm Ahmedabad Q&A
- 9. Jun 9 1969 om Ahmedabad
- 10. Jun 10 1969 om Ahmedabad Q&A
This information seems as reliable as anything else encountered in connection with Prabhu Mandir, in that it is internally consistent and makes sense concerning the numbers, ie eight audio discourses offered, with two more intimate afternoon sessions wandering off somewhere else. The tenth is noted as having a "social" theme, so it did not fit with the rest or Cheti Sakai To Cheti either. In fact, these "intimate" settings offer another explanation besides poor sound quality of why audio numbers may disagree, that may possibly be applicable to many series.
And Prabhu Mandir #9's title is not found above in any previous information but an attempt is made in the D&P image to render it, and "Dharm Aur Chintan" is in fact what Cheti Sakai #4 is called, so this is a plausible destination. And since it is offered as part of osho.com's Cheti Sakai audiobook, better to leave it under that title in the Events dept and Timeline, but with the date as here.
One further significant merit of the Jun 8-11 1969 timetable for the whole thing is that it agrees closely, if not precisely, with the dates and place (Ahmedabad) given in the first e-book above. How bad can this be?
That all the talks are in Ahmedabad in one continuous series means we'll have to let Chanda go for now. Something may have happened there on those days in 1967, but perhaps nothing to do with Prabhu Mandir. We could do far worse than go with Jagdish's info at least provisionally. -- doofus-9 07:46, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
OW has 10 mp3s, osho.com has 5 mp3s.
It needs to be researched what is what.