Talk:Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka (प्रेम है द्वार प्रभु का)

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Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld
audio,
Osho.com
Shailendra's PDF, Oshoganga 1973 book edition; OshoWorld e-book (*1) Other book editions Dates & Places
Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka ~ 01 #1 1. भय या प्रेम 1. भय या प्रेम 1. भय या प्रेम ?
missing last paragraph
6 May 1968 pm, Bhartiya Vidhya Bhavan, Bombay
Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka ~ 02 (*3) 2. "not available" 2. जीवन की कला (*4) 2. जीवन की कला (*4) ~1967~1968
Jeevan Darshan ~ 02 Jeevan Darshan #2 3. "not available",
but available as Jeevan Darshan 2. बीज में वृक्ष का साक्षात्कार
3. आनंद खोज की सम्यक दिशा
incomplete (missing beginning and q.2-3)
3. आनंद खोज की सम्यक् दिशा
incomplete (missing beginning and q.2-3)
Jeevan Darshan (जीवन दर्शन), 1975ed., 2. बीज में वृक्ष का साक्षात्कार with date 13 Aug 1967 Ghatkopar, Bombay
(complete talk)
13 Aug 1967 am, Ghatkopar, Bombay
Samyak Shiksha ~ 06 #2 Samyak Shiksha 6. शिक्षा तनाव की नहीं, विश्राम की (*2) Samyak Shiksha 6. यह अधूरी शिक्षा? 4. यह अधूरी शिक्षा
incomplete (missing last 2 paragraphs)
21 Jan 1968, 10:00, Podar College, Bombay
Samyak Shiksha ~ 07 #3 Samyak Shiksha 7. सम्यक शिक्षा (*2) Samyak Shiksha 7. सम्यक शिक्षा 22 Jan 1968 am, Bombay University, Bombay
Samyak Shiksha ~ 08 #4 Samyak Shiksha 8. प्रेम--अनुशासन--क्रांति (*2) Samyak Shiksha 8. प्रेम--अनुशासन--क्रांति 5 May 1968 om **, Nargol
Samyak Shiksha ~ 09 Samyak Shiksha 9. "Audio Not Available" (*2) Samyak Shiksha 9. शिक्षाः महत्वाकांक्षा और युवा पीढ़ी का विद्रोह 5. शिक्षा : महत्वाकांक्षा और युवा-पीढ़ी का विद्रोह unknown
Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka ~ 06 4. "not available" 4. महायुद्ध या महाक्रांति 6. महायुद्ध या महाक्रांति ? ~1967~1968
Shiksha Mein Kranti ~ 04 Shiksha Main Kranti #4 Shiksha Mein Kranti 4. शिक्षक, समाज और क्रांति Shiksha Mein Kranti 4. शिक्षक, समाज और क्रांति 7. शिक्षा में क्रांति
missing last paragraph
Kranti-Nad (क्रान्ति-नाद), 1973 ed., ch.1 1967, place unknown
Shiksha Mein Kranti ~ 07 Shiksha Main Kranti #7 Shiksha Mein Kranti 7. नारी और क्रांति Shiksha Mein Kranti 7. नारी और क्रांति 8. नारी और क्रांति
missing last paragraph
Kranti-Nad (क्रान्ति-नाद), 1973 ed., ch.4 1967--1970?
Kya Ishwar Mar Gaya Hai ~ 03 Kya Ishwar Mar Gaya Hai #3
  • 5. "not available"
  • Kya Ishwar Mar Gaya Hai? 3. ज्ञान की पहली किरण
  • 5. अंतर्यात्रा के सूत्र
    incomplete (missing first 11 paragraphs)
  • Kya Ishwar Mar Gaya Hai 3. ज्ञान की पहली किरण
9. अन्तर्यात्रा के सूत्र
incomplete (missing first 11 paragraphs)
Kya Ishwar Mar Gaya Hai? (क्या ईश्वर मर गया है?), 1975ed., 3. ज्ञान की पहली किरण 22 Mar 1967 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Jeevan Kranti Ki Disha ~ 03 Shunya Samadhi #3
missing first sentence
6. "not available"
but available as Jeevan Kranti Ki Disha 3. जीवन में जागरूकता
missing first sentence
6. अहंकार
incomplete (missing last 18 paragraphs)
10. अहंकार
incomplete (missing last 18 paragraphs)
Shunya Samadhi (शून्य समाधि), 1976ed., 7. जीवन में जागरूकता (incomplete)
and also Jeevan Kranti Ki Disha (जीवन क्रांति की दिशा), 2019ed., 3. जीवन में जागरूकता
22 Jan 1968 pm, Ruia College, Matunga, Bombay
Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai ~ 02 Kya Ishwar Mar Gaya Hai #6 Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai? 2. यांत्रिकता को जानना क्रांति है Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai 2. यांत्रिकता को जानना क्रांति है 11. क्या मनुष्य एक यंत्र है ?
incomplete in the end
Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai? (क्या मनुष्य एक यंत्र है?), 2. यांत्रिकता को जानना क्रांति है 21 May 1967, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai ~ 03 Kya Ishwar Mar Gaya Hai #7 Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai? 3. जागरण के तीन सूत्र Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai 3. जागरण के सूत्र 12. मित्र ! निद्रा से जागो
incomplete in the end
Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai? (क्या मनुष्य एक यंत्र है?), 3. जागरण के सूत्र 22 May 1967, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Yuvak Aur Yaun ~ 03 Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur #8
  • 7. "not available"
  • Yuvak Aur Yaun 3. प्रेम और विवाह
  • 7. प्रेम है द्वार प्रभु का
    missing last 3 paragraphs
  • Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or 8. प्रेम और विवाह
13. प्रेम है द्वार प्रभु का
missing last 3 paragraphs
1970 -- 1971 ?, Bombay

(*1) Chapter titles of OW e-book have two small insignificant differences.

(*2) We could not compare audios by contents, so used duration-comparing. Audio durations match to OW audio (difference is on 2 min, which is Copyrights in osho.com version). All titles also match to Shailendra's PDF except #6, and #9 is unavailable at all.

(*3) End of this event is also available at sheets 29 and 28 of Manuscripts ~ Jeevan Sampada Ka Adhikar (जीवन सम्पदा का अधिकार).

(*4) No relation found with text of Jeevan Ki Kala (जीवन की कला).

Deliberations

About the audio, the free download places have four mp3s and, mysteriously, the two audiobook places, where you pay for packaging and titles and presumably decent quality sound, have either one or seven. Leaving aside how that might work, it is osho.com that has one and Osho World seven. Osho.com's offering indicates that its lone title, the same as OW's first, is complemented by six others which are unavailable. FWIW, the text at osho.com indicates this is track 5 and the table of tracks, 1 to 7, says track 7, with six preceding blanks. It runs 81 minutes. There are no timings given for the titled audiobook tracks at Osho World. They do give timings for the four on offer for free download but no titles, and none of them 81 minutes. Whatever. At least osho.com has given us a Hindi blurb for the book. It is themed around that one discourse, "Fear or Love", so okay. It came to the editor's attention that the blurb used previously was the same as that for Prem Ganga (प्रेम गंगा). Looks like mistakes were made.

TOCs

Meanwhile, the e-book has been looked into, and it has made things clearer but more complicated :-) It is a long one, representing possibly eight or ten hours of talks. There are no date or place data, nor chapter numbers. Chapter titles stand out very little, sometimes with no spaces separating them from the end of the previous chapters, so they are either recognised from OW's titles or inferred by their shortness plus a preceding line of space. Such apparent titles as were found are reproduced below among OW's titles. Those with a number have borrowed it from OW, it did not appear in the e-book. Those without a number APPEAR to be titles, as judged by the similarity of their presentation to that of known titles. Mistakes may have been made. -- updated doofus-9 (talk) 04:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

And another e-book has been found, at epustakalay.com. It has a real TOC, complete with chapter numbers, titles and page numbers, deriving from the 1971 Motilal Banarsidass edition. But there are complications ... Instead of 7 or 9 chapters, it has 13. They have been added to the table below and spaces added in the others so that all may align for easier comparisons.
One can see that there are actually only two new titles among them, the rest being in common with either one or the other of the shorter collections. And 13 rings a bell: It is the number of thingies that are mentioned in the second image below from Jagdish. So let's shuffle on down and have a look there ... -- doofus-9 02:34, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
    Osho World audiobook

1. भय या प्रेम
2. जीवन की कला
3. आनंद खोज की सम्यक दिशा  
 
 
4. महायुद्ध या महाक्रांति
 
 
5. अंतर्यात्रा के सूत्र
6. अहंकार
 
 
7. प्रेम है द्वार प्रभु का

    e-book, with page #s where found

1. भय या प्रेम -- p 1
2. जीवन की कला -- p 17
3. this title not found
  यह अधूरी शिक्षा -- p 34
  शिक्षा : महत्वाकांक्षा और युवा पीढ़ी का विद्रोह -- p 45  
4. महायुद्ध या महाक्रांति -- p 59
  शिक्षा में क्रांति -- p 70
 
5. अंतर्यात्रा के सूत्र -- p 94
6. this title not found
  क्या मनुष्य एक यंत्र है -- p 120
 
7. प्रेम है द्वार प्रभु का -- p 141

    e-pustak (Motilal), with ch # and page #

1. भय या प्रेम -- p 7
2. जीवन की कला -- p 31
3. आनंद खोज की सम्यक दिशा -- p 49
4. यह अधूरी शिक्षा -- p 59
5. शिक्षा : महत्वाकांक्षा और युवा पीढ़ी का विद्रोह -- p 77  
6. महायुद्ध या महाक्रांति -- p 99
7. शिक्षा में क्रांति -- p 117
8. नारी और क्रांति -- p 139
9. अंतर्यात्रा के सूत्र -- p 155
10. अहंकार -- p 173
11. क्या मनुष्य एक यंत्र है -- p 195
12. मित्र निद्र से जागो -- p 213
13. प्रेम है द्वार प्रभु का -- p 229

Above table is not complete. OW e-book has 13 chapters, which are the same as 1973 edition's ch-titles. It is shown in Current Understanding table, although with page numbers.--DhyanAntar 07:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

E-book from Shailendra mentioned the same TOC as OW's one.--DhyanAntar 07:03, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Dates and Places

Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka 1-4 D&P.jpg
Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka 1-13 WhatIzzit.jpg

This book already has more than its share of oddities and conundra. Jagdish has offered a couple of images pertaining to the series to add a few more. The first appears to be straightforward Dates and Places info but it has a few kinks. The function of the second is explored further down. A few notes follow the text version of the D&P below.

1. May 6 1968 pm Bhartiya Vidhya Bhavan, Bombay (Love and Fear; alt.title -- Adhay)
2. Jan 21 1968 am Podar College, Matunga, Bombay (talk to teachers; alt.title -- Prem Ki Shiksha)
3. Jan 22 1968 am Bombay University, Bombay (talk to students)
4. May 5 1968 om Nargol (talk to children)

It's always great to get these dates and places but in this case not clear which discourse titles (and chapter numbers) match these D&P discourse numbers (never mind which TOC above to believe). But giving it our best shot ...

Update for above list: added "alt.titles" which checked and agreed with text of talks. This list relates with OW 4 audios.--DhyanAntar 07:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

The first is relatively easy, the theme of the talk matching the title of the first discourse in both TOCs.
The second, hmmm ... There is no title in either TOC even close to "Prem Ki Shiksha", but "Shiksha", education, does come up three times in the TOC of the e-book. One of them is Shiksha Mein Kranti (शिक्षा में क्रांति), which, as the title of one of Osho's other books, may not be the perfect choice here. More about that later below.

Leaving Kranti aside, we have two "education" titles to fit to two audiences, teachers and university students. I would guess that the second Shiksha title, शिक्षा : महत्वाकांक्षा और युवा पीढ़ी का विद्रोह, or "Education: Aspiration and the Revolution of the Young Generation", best applies to the students, leaving the first Shiksha title, यह अधूरी शिक्षा, "this incomplete education", for the teachers. It hasn't much in common with "Prem Ki Shiksha", "an education in love", but perhaps the title-writers were from different generations. Whatever.

And what can we give to the children? Standing back from it all, we can see that both of the education titles have come from the e-book's TOC. Neither is in the audiobook. The e-book's other "exclusive" titles are Shiksha Mein Kranti and Kya Manushya Ek Yantra Hai? (क्या मनुष्य एक यंत्र है?), "Is Man a Machine?", another whole other book title, like Shiksha Mein Kranti. Neither sounds promising as a talk intended for children. So, looking again ...

Jagdish has characterized this talk as "spiritual" which he does most of the time, in contrast to "social", "political" or, as here, "education". "Spiritual" isn't much of a clue, but, looking at those titles in that light and considering what might be suitable for children, we could do a lot worse than settle on the last title, which is also the book's title, a very simple theme, "so simple that only a child can do it" as Osho has said on other occasions.

Reconciling the different numbers of discourses still presents plenty of challenges but the above match-up choices at least come in the same order, another small thing in its favour.

About Shiksha Mein Kranti and Kya Manushya: these two have more in common than just being "whole book titles". They also appear in the mysterious second image, of 13 names of something associated with Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka. But what can this list be? In fact, several titles -- and they are all titles of Osho's books, including PHDPK itself -- appear more than once on the list. And the second number with each title, what could that possibly be? Especially given that, when a title is repeated, the number is different. Anybody out there have a clue?

Given the lack of agreement and alignment between the two TOCs and the D&P image, it seems premature to assign dates or places definitively to any of the talks/chapters of this collection or create any particular event pages, beyond the one which is consistent in all, the first talk. -- doofus-9 18:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Of the four talks with Dates and Places, three were entered in the Timeline (1, 3 and 4) but only one linked to an event, #1. With #2, another talk was found at exactly the same time and place, with the same audience and theme, Samyak Shiksha (सम्यक शिक्षा) #6, so for now these two events have to be considered as one. -- doofus-9 07:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
And now, with D&P data found for Samyak, its #6 is not only confirmed but its #7 and 8 have been found to occupy the same spaces as the hypothesized #3 and 4 of PHDPK. Precedence has been given to Samyak for these slots, as its theme is explicitly education. There may be errors, or they may be the same events, we await developments. For now, the relevant PHDPK event pages will be filled in with the guesses as above but not be put in the Timeline slots. -- doofus-9 07:39, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Re the last preceding sentence, guesses are abandoned but the PHDPK event pages are entered in the Timeline, though with Samyak's equivalent events as primaries.
Meanwhile, developments have happened. A comparison of audio lengths per the event pages makes a strong case for these three chapters / talks being identical. The close resemblance of the overall pattern is impressive, with the small differences easily explained by editing and marketing vagaries :
Samyak Shiksha ~ 06: 49 min, vs 47 for Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka, #02
Samyak Shiksha ~ 07: 55 min, vs 54 for Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka, #03
Samyak Shiksha, #08: 32 min, vs 31 for Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka, #04
And we can look at what Shailendra has on these two series over at Shifting content in Hindi books (source document). He does not link Samyak and PHDPK but he has found other chapters in PHDPK which appear to be duplicates of discourses in other scattered books, specifically ch 3, 5, 6 and 7, making this book rather less than a unified whole. It can now be said with reasonable confidence that these three discourses can be thought of as "belonging" to Samyak. Except -- ha ha! -- possibly the last one, Samyak #8 / PHDPK #4, can be thought of as more naturally belonging here, as it is not explicitly education-themed, a short talk given to some children at Nargol. For now it will remain with Samyak, though it may be tempting to bring it back here, since a) as we explored above, if its title is indeed PHDPK, it has a natural home here, and b) it is not shlepped away to other books the way #3, 5, 6 and 7 are and c) the theme is not education per se.
Finally, we can note that some of this applies to and resonates with the media status below. -- doofus-9 18:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

The 13 thingies of Prem Hai Dwar

Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka 1-13 WhatIzzit.jpg

It was written earlier, in a time of non-comprehension:

About Shiksha Mein Kranti and Kya Manushya: these two have more in common than just being "whole book titles". They also appear in Jagdish's mysterious second image (right), of 13 names of something associated with Prem Hai Dwar Prabhu Ka. But what can this list be? In fact, several titles -- and they are all titles of Osho's books, including PHDPK itself -- appear more than once on the list. And the second number with each title, what could that possibly be? Especially given that, when a title is repeated, the number is different. Anybody out there have a clue?
Yes, these two numbers mean unique 'events' which don't appear in other books.--DhyanAntar 08:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

It now seems strange that the obvious possibility that these are chapter numbers and equivalent chapter numbers in other books did not get considered, or at least considered enough to be worth noting. One obstacle is that when one goes to these other books to check out their chapter titles, no same titles are seen. This is disappointing of course but not the end of the story. They can still be the same chapters just with different titles. And when it was written, there were not 13 chapters known, only nine. Now that there are known to be 13 chapters, well, there's a different perspective ...

And now more clues can be put together that were in fact available then but the time was not right, or perhaps Mercury was up Uranus. And it was not so obvious. Here we speak of Shailendra's "Shifting content". Shailendra mentions some of the same books in connection with Prem Hai Dwar as Jagdish but not all, and his equivalencies are for the most part different from Jagdish's. There is some commonality though, which is encouraging and indicates we may finally be on the right track with this. And part of the difference may revolve around which edition of ch x we are talking about. So ...

Both say that Prem Hai Dwar #3 is the same as Jeevan Darshan #2. That is the only case of complete alignment. Another partial alignment that could be massaged to be more complete is this one: Shailendra has PHD #7 the same as Yuvak Aur Yaun #3, while Jagdish has PHD #13 the same as Yuvak #13. Looking at this with "well, maybe" eyes, we might consider that PHD #7 in one system is the same as PHD #13 in another, while Yuvak #13 is impossible -- there are never more than 9 in any of its incarnations -- but it might well be a typo, with #3 intended. Ya never know!

And it's messy, so enough for today? -- doofus-9 02:34, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


Samyak Shiksha ch.10 doesn't exist. Or there is other unknown source with 10 talks?

Ch.5 in Jagdish's list should be Samyak Shiksha #9.--DhyanAntar 08:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)


OW has 4 mp3s.

osho.com mentions 7 audios, but has only 1 available:

  • #1: भय या प्रेम 81min.--Sugit

Ruminations above point to some reasons why the audio availability is how it is. Osho.com's audios are all (but #1) off with other series, Samyak and the other three mentioned in "Shifting content". OW has no audios listed under Samyak, so the ones they do have that are shared with Samyak are offered here. Why they have seven for their paid audiobook can remain a mystery. -- doofus-9 18:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC)


New Current Understanding table can help you, guys, isn't it?--DhyanAntar 08:10, 7 September 2020 (UTC)