Talk:Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi Aur Ab Hai Bhikhari Jagat Ka (स्वर्ण पाखी था जो कभी और अब है भिखारी जगत का): Difference between revisions

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|| 11 Sep 1970, [[Wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
|| 11 Sep 1970, [[Wikipedia:Mumbai |Bombay]]
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| [[Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 04]] || audio missing || ''Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi'' 04. धरम और राजनीती<br>"Audio Not Available" || 18. धर्म और राजनीति (*1) || 18. धर्म और राजनीति || 4. धर्म और राजनीति ||  
| [[Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 04]] || #18 : audio missing || ''Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi'' 04. धरम और राजनीती<br>"Audio Not Available" || 18. धर्म और राजनीति (*1) || 18. धर्म और राजनीति || 4. धर्म और राजनीति ||  
* ''[[Dharm Aur Rajneeti (धर्म और राजनीति)]]'', 1972ed. '''(*3)'''
* ''[[Dharm Aur Rajneeti (धर्म और राजनीति)]]'', 1972ed. '''(*3)'''
* ''[[Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न)]]'', 1979ed., 18. धर्म और राजनीति
* ''[[Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न)]]'', 1979ed., 18. धर्म और राजनीति

Revision as of 09:39, 30 August 2020

Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld
audio,
Osho.com
1988 book ed. (*1) Shailendra's PDF (*2) Oshoganga Other book editions Dates & Places
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna ~ 01 #01 Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 01. समस्याओं के ढेर 1. समस्याओं के ढेर (*1)
  • 1. समस्याओं के ढेर
  • Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 1. समस्याओं के ढेर
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 1. समस्याओं के ढेर Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 1. समस्याओं के ढेर 23 Dec 1969 pm, Ahmedabad
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna ~ 02 #02 Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 02. गरीबी और समाजवाद 2. गरीबी और समाजवाद (*1)
  • 2. गरीबी और समाजवाद
  • Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 2. गरीबी और समाजवाद
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 2. गरीबी और समाजवाद Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 2. गरीबी और समाजवाद 24 Dec 1969 pm, Ahmedabad
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna ~ 03 #03 Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 03. राष्ट्रभाषा और खंडित देश 3. राष्ट्रभाषा और खण्डित देश (*1)
  • 3. राष्ट्रभाषा और खण्डित देश
  • Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 3. राष्ट्रभाषा और खण्डित देश
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 3. राष्ट्रभाषा और खंडित देश Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 3. राष्ट्रभाषा और खण्डित देश 25 Dec 1969 pm, Ahmedabad
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna ~ 04 #04 Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 04. पूंजीवाद की अनिवार्यता 4. पूंजीवाद की अनिवार्यता (*1)
  • 4. पूंजीवाद की अनिवार्यता
  • Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 4. पूंजीवाद की अनिवार्यता
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 4. पूंजीवाद की अनिवार्यता Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 4. पूंजीवाद की अनिवार्यता 26 Dec 1969 am, Ahmedabad
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna ~ 05 #05 Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 05. भारत के भटके युवक 5. भारत के भटके युवक (*1)
  • 5. भारत के भटके युवक
  • Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 5. भारत के भटके युवक
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna 5. भारत के भटके युवक Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 5. भारत के भटके युवक 26 Dec 1969 am, Ahmedabad
Samajvad Se Savdhan ~ 01 #06 Samajvad Se Savdhan 01. समाजवाद अर्थात पूर्ण विकसित पूंजीवाद 6. समाजवाद अर्थात पूर्ण विकसित पूंजीवाद (*1)
  • 6. समाजवाद अर्थात पूर्ण विकसित पूंजीवाद
    text differs from audio a little
    missing last paragraph
  • Samajvad Se Savdhan 1. समाजवाद अर्थात पूर्ण विकसित पूंजीवाद
    text differs from audio a little
    missing last paragraph
Samajvad Se Savdhan 1. समाजवाद अर्थात पूर्ण विकसित पूंजीवाद
text differs from audio a little
missing last paragraph
13 Apr 1970 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Samajvad Se Savdhan ~ 02 #07 Samajvad Se Savdhan 02. धर्म-विरोधी तथाकथित समाजवाद 7. धर्म-विरोधी तथाकथित समाजवाद (*1)
  • 7. धर्म-विरोधी तथाकथित समाजवाद
    missing last 3 paragraphs
  • Samajvad Se Savdhan 2. धर्म-विरोधी तथाकथित समाजवाद
    missing last 3 paragraphs
Samajvad Se Savdhan 2. धर्म-विरोधी तथाकथित समाजवाद
missing last 3 paragraphs
14 Apr 1970 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Samajvad Se Savdhan ~ 03 #08 Samajvad Se Savdhan 03. पूंजीवाद की नैसर्गिक व्यवस्था 8. पूंजीवाद की नैसर्गिक व्यवस्था (*1)
  • 8. पूंजीवाद की नैसर्गिक व्यवस्था
    first paragraph incomplete, missing last 2 paragraphs
  • Samajvad Se Savdhan 3. पूंजीवाद की नैसर्गिक व्यवस्था
    first paragraph incomplete, missing last 2 paragraphs
Samajvad Se Savdhan 3. पूंजीवाद की नैसर्गिक व्यवस्था
first paragraph incomplete, missing last 2 paragraphs
15 Apr 1970 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Samajvad Se Savdhan ~ 04 #09 Samajvad Se Savdhan 04. कोरा शब्द: लोकतांत्रिक समाजवाद 9. कोरा शब्द : लोकतांत्रिक समाजवाद (*1)
  • 9. कोरा शब्दः लोकतांत्रिक समाजवाद
    end incomplete and second part of last paragraph does not match to audio
  • Samajvad Se Savdhan 4. कोरा शब्दः लोकतांत्रिक समाजवाद
    end incomplete and second part of last paragraph does not match to audio
Samajvad Se Savdhan 4. कोरा शब्दः लोकतांत्रिक समाजवाद
end incomplete and second part of last paragraph does not match to audio
16 Apr 1970 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Samajvad Se Savdhan ~ 05 #10 Samajvad Se Savdhan 05. पूंजीवाद, समाजवाद और सर्वोदय 10. पूंजीवाद, समाजवाद और सर्वोदय (*1)
  • 10. पूंजीवाद, समाजवाद और सर्वोदय
    missing some sentences in middle of last paragraph
  • Samajvad Se Savdhan 5. पूंजीवाद, समाजवाद और सर्वोदय
    missing some sentences in middle of last paragraph
Samajvad Se Savdhan 5. पूंजीवाद, समाजवाद और सर्वोदय
missing some sentences in middle of last paragraph
17 Apr 1970 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat ~ 01 #11 Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 01. समाजवाद क्या—सिर्फ राजनीति है! 11. समाजवाद क्या--सिर्फ राजनीति है! (*1)
  • 11. समाजवाद क्या--सिर्फ राजनीति है!
  • Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 1. समाजवाद क्या--सिर्फ राजनीति है!
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 1. समाजवाद क्या--सिर्फ राजनीति है! 8 Aug 1970, Ahmedabad
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat ~ 02 #12 (before 52:44)
missing last 5 paragraphs
after 52:44 the end of another talk - Swarn Pakhi #14
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 02. समाजवाद : दासता की एक व्यवस्था
incomplete (missing last 5 paragraphs)
12. समाजवाद : दासता की एक व्यवस्था (*1)
  • 12. समाजवादः दासता की एक व्यवस्था
  • Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 2. समाजवादः दासता की एक व्यवस्था
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 2. समाजवादः दासता की एक व्यवस्था 9 Aug 1970, Ahmedabad
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat ~ 03 #13 Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 03. पूंजीवाद : ज्यादा मानवीय व्यवस्था 13. पूंजीवाद : ज्यादा मानवीय व्यवस्था (*1)
  • 13. पूंजीवादः ज्यादा मानवीय व्यवस्था
  • Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 3. पूंजीवादः ज्यादा मानवीय व्यवस्था
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 3. पूंजीवादः ज्यादा मानवीय व्यवस्था 10 Aug 1970, Ahmedabad
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat ~ 04 #14
greetings incomplete
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 04. लोकशाही समाजवाद : एक भ्रांत धारणा
missing greetings
14. लोकशाही समाजवाद : एक भ्रांत धारणा (*1)
  • 14. लोकशाही समाजवादः एक भ्रांत धारणा
  • Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 4. लोकशाही समाजवादः एक भ्रांत धारणा
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat 4. लोकशाही समाजवादः एक भ्रांत धारणा 11 Aug 1970, Ahmedabad
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 01 #15
last 1,5 min not transcribed in all text sources
(at least first question is in English but Osho answering in Hindi)
Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 01. क्रांति की वैज्ञानिक प्रक्रिया
last 1,5 min not transcribed in all text sources
(at least first question is in English but Osho answering in Hindi)
15. क्रांति की वैज्ञानिक प्रक्रिया (*1) 15. क्रांति की वैज्ञानिक प्रक्रिया 1. क्रांति की वैज्ञानिक प्रक्रिया 18 Aug 1969, Ahmedabad
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 02 #16
greetings is very distorted
Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 02. क्रांति के बीच सबसे बड़ी दीवाल
missing greetings
16. क्रांति के बीच सबसे बड़ी दीवार (*1) 16. क्रांति के बीच सबसे बड़ी दीवार 2. क्रांति के बीच सबसे बड़ी दीवाल ≤Feb 1970, Ruia College, Bombay
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 03 #17 Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 03. प्रगतिशील कौन? 17. प्रगतिशील कौन? (*1) 17. प्रगतिशील कौन? 3. प्रगतिशील कौन? 11 Sep 1970, Bombay
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 04 #18 : audio missing Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 04. धरम और राजनीती
"Audio Not Available"
18. धर्म और राजनीति (*1) 18. धर्म और राजनीति 4. धर्म और राजनीति 1970, Jabalpur
Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par ~ 01 audio mising audio missing it seems unpublished and text unavailable 21 May 1970, Surat
Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par ~ 02 Ek Ek Kadam #06 (*4)
last sentence incomplete
Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 05. (*4)
"समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर: 1"
last sentence incomplete
perhaps it is missing
  • 5. समाज परिवर्तन के चैराहे पर-1
  • Ek Ek Kadam 6. समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर
Ek Ek Kadam (एक एक कदम), 2000 and 2002ed., 6. समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर 22 May 1970, Surat
Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par ~ 03 #19 Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 06. समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर: 2 19. समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर (*1) 19. समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर 6. समाज परिवर्तन के चैराहे पर-2 Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 19. समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर 22 May 1970, Surat
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 07 (*5) #20 (before 42:23) Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 07. आज की राजनीति (before 43:33)
from 43:33 another talk
20. आज की राजनीति (*1) 20. आज की राजनीति 7. आज की राजनीति Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 20. आज की राजनीति 15 Aug 1969, Rotary Club, Baroda
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 08 (*6) #21 Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 08. भारत किस ओर 21. भारत किस ओर (*1) 21. भारत किस ओर 8. भारत किस ओर Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 21. भारत किस ओर 17 Aug 1969, Baroda
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 09 (*7) #20 (from 42:23)
  • Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 09. नए भारत की दिशा ("Audio Not Available")
  • in fact it is available as Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 7. आज की राजनीति (from 43:33)
22. नये भारत की दिशा (*1) 22. नये भारत की दिशा 9. नये भारत की दिशा Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 22. नये भारत की दिशा 18 Aug 1969, M.S. College, Baroda
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 10 (*8) #22 Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 10. भारत के निर्णायक क्षण 23. भारत के निर्णायक क्षण (*1) 23. भारत के निर्णायक क्षण 10. भारत के निर्णायक क्षण Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 23. भारत के निर्णायक क्षण 23 Dec 1969 om**, Ahmedabad
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi ~ 11 (*9) #23 Swarnapakhi Tha Jo Kabhi 11. नया भारत 24. नया भारत (*1) 24. नया भारत 11. नया भारत Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1979ed., 24. नया भारत 24 Dec 1969 am, Ahmedabad
notes
(*1) Comparing of this source based only on its chapter title. In other words it has not been checked on completeness of text.
(*2) Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi is shortened from Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi Aur Ab Hai Bhikhari Jagat Ka Shailendra's PDF.
(*3) This is actually the one-chapter booklet where this discourse was first published. We have not used it for the eventName, as it would lead to many one-event series. Instead, naming like in the Osho.com library has been used.
(*4) In OA, there was an error: "Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi #18" was available as s023, but the Osho.com intro says it is "Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi #05". (This same error is in the Khajana collection s038: there it was copied from OA :-)
And the audio we are talking about is indeed the same as OA's (s023) "Ek Ek Kadam #06".
Remove this note when correcting OA-audio ready.
(*5) Original name of this discourse is Aaj Ki Rajneeti (आज की राजनीति).
We thought of using that as the eventName, but it would lead to many one-discourse event-series. The Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna-compilation where it was first published is also not a good name. So naming like on Osho.com has been used.
(*6) Original name of this discourse is Bharat Kis Or (भारत किस ओर). Considerations as with (*5).
(*7) Original name of this discourse is Nae Bharat Ki Disha (नये भारत की दिशा). Considerations as with (*5).
(*8) Original name of this discourse is Bharat Ke Nirnayak Kshan (भारत के निर्णायक क्षण). Considerations as with (*5).
(*9) Original name of this discourse is Naya Bharat (नया भारत). Considerations as with (*5).


Deliberations

This Talk page has some fairly obsolete material written in earlier times about this compilation. It has been retained in its own section ("Before Apr 16 2017") so as to provide a window into the wiki process.

After Apr 16 2017

All the new info has come from Osho's brother, Shailendra. The place to start is the TOC, with dates and locations where available. The titles are as per the image of the Index page of Rebel's 1988 edition, at Media:Swarn Pakhi 1988 contents.jpg. Dates and locations and source volumes are added by Shailendra. See also footnotes below table for more info, relating mostly to changes from the previous dispensation.

TOC

स्वर्ण पाखी था जो कभी और अब है भिखारी जगत का Dates and locations
Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न), 1-5 1
01 समस्याओं के ढेर Ahmedabad, Dec 23 1969 2
02 गरीबी और समाजवाद Ahmedabad, Dec 24 1969 2
03 राष्ट्रभाषा और खण्डित देश Ahmedabad, Dec 25 1969 2
04 पूंजीवाद की अनिवार्यता Ahmedabad, Dec 26 1969 morning 2
05 भारते के भटके युवक Ahmedabad, Dec 26 1969 night 2
Samajvad Se Savdhan (समाजवाद से सावधान), 6-10
06 समाजवाद अर्थात पूर्ण विकसित पूंजीवाद Cross Maidan, Mumbai, Apr 13 1970
07 धर्म-विरोधी तथाकथित समाजवाद Cross Maidan, Mumbai, Apr 14 1970
08 पूंजीवाद की नैसर्गिक व्यवस्था Cross Maidan, Mumbai, Apr 15 1970
09 कोरा शब्द : लोकतांत्रिक समाजवाद Cross Maidan, Mumbai, Apr 16 1970
10 पूंजीवाद, समाजवाद और सर्वोदय Cross Maidan, Mumbai, Apr 17 1970
Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat (समाजवाद अर्थात् आत्मघात), 11-14
11 समाजवाद क्या--सिर्फ राजनीति है! Ahmedabad, Aug 8, 1970 3
12 समाजवाद : दासता की एक व्यवस्था Ahmedabad, Aug 9, 1970 3
13 पूंजीवाद : ज्यादा मानवीय व्यवस्था Ahmedabad, Aug 10, 1970 3
14 लोकशाही समाजवाद : एक भ्रांत धारणा Ahmedabad, Aug 11, 1970 3
other booklets, 15-24 4, 10 Transliteration 11 and Translation 12
15 क्रांति की वैज्ञानिक प्रक्रिया A youth seminar debate 18 Aug 1969 Kranti Ki Vaigyanik Prakriya -- The Scientific Process of Revolution
16 क्रांति के बीच सबसे बड़ी दीवार :
भारत के साधु संत
Ruia College, Mumbai 1970 5 Kranti Ke Beech Sabse Badi Diwar? : Bharat Ke Sadhu Sant
The Largest Barrier to Revolution: India's Saints
17 प्रगतिशील कौन? A progressive group, Bombay, 11 Sep 1970 6 Pragatisheel Kaun? -- Who Is Progressive?
18 धर्म और राजनीति Talk organized by Yukrand, Jabalpur 1970 7 Dharm Aur Rajneeti -- Religion and Politics
  (unpublished, no audio) likely May 21 1970 8 Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par -- At the Crossroads of Social Change - earlier talk 8
  (Ek Ek Kadam ch.6) May 22 1970 8 Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par -- At the Crossroads of Social Change - Part 1 8
19 समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर Surat, May 22 1970 8 Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par -- At the Crossroads of Social Change - Part 2 8
20 आज की राजनीति Rotary Club, Baroda, Aug 15 1969 Aaj Ki Rajneeti -- Today's Politics
21 भारत किस ओर Baroda, Aug 17 1969 Bharat Kis Or -- Whither India
22 नये भारत की दिशा SS College14, Baroda, Aug 18 1969 Nae Bharat Ki Disha -- Direction for a New India
23 भारत के निर्णायक क्षण Ahmedabad, Dec 23 1969 9 Bharat Ke Nirnayak Kshan -- India's Crucial Moments
24 नया भारत Ahmedabad, Dec 24 1969 9,10 Naya Bharat 13 -- A New India

TOC footnotes

1. Re Jalte, the clear message that this title was once the über-title for the whole shebang rather upsets the apple-cart of the previous analysis, both for Swarn Pakhi and Jalte. It is indeed Jalte published earlier with whole 24 chapters set.
2. Jalte's dates and location have been updated as well. The previous view, that talks were given in Mumbai from 13-17 Mar 1970 had some suspicious or less-than-authoritative elements. These include:
a) The source for those dates, Neeten's Osho Source Book, is still in rough draft mode and has a lot of unverified facts.
b) Neeten's "facts" do not include actually naming Jalte. That step was our inference, based on his use of "Samajwad Se Savdhaan" as another apparent über-title for all the "volumes" of the collective Swarn Pakhi. It was a reasonable inference and fit in a number of ways but it may be time to let it go, at least for a while.
c) the purported dates for the inferred Jalte looked very similar to those for Savdhaan, ie 13-17 Mar instead of 13-17 Apr, could be some crossed wires.
Dates corrected again according to 1979ed. of Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न) and review of text (see Talk:Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न)).
The current view has a suspicious element as well, just to keep it interesting. This is detailed in footnote #9.
3. The previous view had talks for Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat given in Ahmednagar MH. That "fact" came from osho.com's blurb for their Atmaghat audiobook offering. Recently that fact was found to have vanished from said blurb, and at the same time, Shailendra has double-checked his sources and confirmed Ahmedabad. So be it.
4. "Other booklets" raises some serious doubt about another cherished notion of the previous view, that Swarn Pakhi once had a life as a separate "volume" unconnected with Jalte and the two Samajvad's. The view now is that Swarn Pakhi only came into existence for this 24-chapter collection, and was never a 9- or 10-chapter smaller collection, or anything that could be deemed a "component" of the "larger" Swarn Pakhi. Larger is all there is, and that too not eternal. Before, the collection was called Bharat Ke Jalte Prashan, and there are signs it may return to that. More about that later below.
First four titles in "other booklets" section published earlier as booklets itselves. The rest are not. They were first published in 1979 as a part of Jalte and since then up to now do not published as own booklets.
5. The subtitle of this chapter is usually not included in other listings, in fact not even in the imaged TOC from the 1988 book. And the last word of the title, दीवार, appears in a recent audiobook list on osho.com as दीवाल. FWIW, G**gle Translate prefers दीवार.
6. Pragatisheel Kaun? (प्रगतिशील कौन?) is one of four titles in this 10-chapter lot which is recognised as having been published separately.
7. "Yukrand" is an acronym for "Yuvak Kranti Dal", or Youth Revolution Group, a group for young people created by Osho, with membership in several (many?) Indian cities.
8. This chapter is yet another anomaly in the Swarn Pakhi saga. In the audiobook reckoning, there are ELEVEN audio files, not just nine or ten. The extra extra one is found in this chapter, which comprises TWO audio files with the same name, parts one and two. Thus, two of osho.com's nine audios available for sale are sources for this chapter. Not that it is particularly long.
(addition --Sugit (talk) 10:52, 24 November 2018 (UTC)) I looked at this with help from Shailendra. He says:
Part 1 of these 2 audios (osho.com 11-set audio #5 / missing in the OW 23-set audio) is NOT published in this book but in stead in the OLD Ek Ek Kadam ch.6. (Indeed, this audio is the very same recording as Ek Ek Kadam #6.)
Part 2 of these 2 audios (osho.com 11-set audio #6 / OW 23-set audio #19) is published, as stated above, as ch.19.
Moreover, it is clear there must have been at least one more discourse in this series "Society on the crossroad of changes", because Osho starts part 1 and part 2 with these statements :
Part 1 / स्वर्णपाखी था जो कभी-5 (Swarnpakhi tha jo kabhi #5) / एक एक कदम-6 (Ek Ek Kadam #6)
मेरे प्रिय आत्मन्, (My dear Aatman)
समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर--इस संबंध में थोड़ी-सी बातें कल मैंने आपसे कहीं। (Yesterday I told you few things about the Society on the crossroad of changes)
Part 2 / स्वर्णपाखी था जो कभी-6 (Swarnpakhi tha jo kabhi #6)
मेरे प्रिय आत्मन्, (My dear Aatman)
पिछली चर्चाओं के संबंध में बहुत से प्रश्न पूछे गए हैं। संक्षिप्त में सभी प्रश्नों का उत्तर देने की कोशिश करूंगा।
एक मित्र ने पूछा है कि समाज के परिवर्तन में, और परिवर्तन के लिए युवक-वर्ग क्या कर सकता है? (Many questions are asked regarding last talks. I will try to answer them all in short. One friend has asked about the Society on the crossroad of changes, and what youth can do for changes?)
So apparently this first talk has not been recorded, nor published.
Let's call this event Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par ~ 01. "Part 1" is event Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par ~ 02 and "Part 2" is ~ 03.
update: These last two (Chaurahe ~ 02 and ~ 03) were both on 22 May, according to Hindi series of talks with dates (source document), making Chaurahe ~ 01, the vanished one, on 21 May, "yesterday" according to Osho. -- 20:11, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
9. The dates of these two talks raise doubts about the complete veracity of the new dates for Jalte. They are not in direct conflict but interspersed among Jalte's dates, and as they are on the same broad theme, one has to wonder why they were simply not included with Jalte's talks.
10. "24". The existence of a tenth talk under Swarn Pakhi's "component" banner brings the formerly "sacred total" of 23 talks to 24 in all. "23" derived from audio sites which offered that number of untitled audios for the series, and failed to consider the possibility that a talk or chapter could exist without an audio. So much for that! -- doofus-9 08:08, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Footnotes 5 & 8 added 22:57, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
11. Transliteration relevant for the "other booklets", as those will be used for event names. Transliterations have been altered and polished to conform to current wiki standards. These especially include more than a few double a's singularized, a few schwa a's dropped, a few double e's changed to i's and so on. FWIW, the schwa a's are an area where G**gle is not nuanced or hip to linguistic conventions. In their progress to Indian language transliteration standardization, this is an area where they will likely give way to conventions that alter strict transliterating rules.
12. Just the translation of the Hindi title, this is not the title of any known book. But if you insist, see the one coming nearest to existing: Who Is Progressive?.
13. A puzzle that remains is Nae Bharat vs Naya Bharat. These i have not altered, they are "faithful" to the original Devanagari, which IS different, though they "should" be the same. We have not only DN spelling issues, eg say Nae vs Naye, where either is apparently "acceptable", but Nae vs Naya includes also a grammatical issue; one of them should be not acceptable, there should be gender agreement. It is possible that something archaic or poetic is being given space, such as an intended masculinizing of Bharat (India).
14. "SS College" seems a typo due similarity "m" and "s" in devanagari: 1979ed. of Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न) gives "M.S. College". Osho spoke in the same place 2 days ago before this talk.
Question: below chapter 18 there are two chapters without a number, both part of "Samaj Parivartan Ke Chaurahe Par", followed by 19 with the same title #03. Am I right to assume that all three are in "chapter 19"? --Sugit (talk) 05:15, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
No, all three are different events and only the last published as the part, ch.19, of Swarn book.--DhyanAntar 05:58, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Hindi series of talks with dates (source document) is a source for several confirmatory infobits:
"Samaj Parivartan Ke..., 2 talks, 22.05.1970".--DhyanAntar 17:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
"Aaj Ki Rajneeti, Sex Differences and Bharat Kis Aur 3 talks, 15.08.69-17.08.69": The first and third fit well for ch 20 and 21 on 15 and 17 Aug, application for the second, presumably on the 16th, not yet found.
"Sex Differences" is Nari Aur Kranti (4 talks) ~ 04, see Talk:Hindi series of talks with dates (source document).
"Informal Talks, 6 talks, 18.08.69-20.08.69", 1st of those talks fits with ch 22. -- doofus-9 20:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
As well as ch.15.--DhyanAntar 05:58, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Question: in the table above, I see "other booklets". That info is not / not complete in the timeline. I assume no name of those booklets known, just a description? Or is the Devanagari a name?

So for now, we bring ch. 15 -- 24 under Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi, as a First Edition, right?

And 1 April 1970, the info of the OSB, has been thrown out, right?

--Sugit (talk) 10:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


1. What is given in the TOC are chapter titles, in Devanagari. The source of these titles is not stated in the image, but Shailendra has stated that they are collected booklets. It is assumed that the chapter titles are the same as their supposed predecessor booklet titles, and that the booklets were actually published.

This cannot be verified yet for all of them -- far from it! -- but it is so for at least two, ch 17 and 18, complete with images.

Thus, Swarn Pakhi may not be a first edition. In fact, it is asserted that the whole collection has previously been published under the title of Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna. Swarn Pakhi also has the distinction of being the only component of itself that was not previously published as a shorter collection, ie compared to the known previously published other components. See Footnote #4 above.

About entering it in the Timeline, that could be dodgy and misleading, unless you mean entering it under the titles of its individual booklets / chapters, with a ** link to this discussion. At least most of them come with dates, and the ones that don't have precise dates have years. Not too shabby, really.

2. Unfortunately, the 1 April 1970 info of the OSB cannot yet be thrown out. It has two strikes against it, ie the lack of confirmation among the decent collection of known dates above and the proximity to the known engagement in Jabalpur the previous day. But for the latter, travel time may not be entirely prohibitive, as he could have flown. And the partially known dates above are all in 1970, so that could be taken as enough wiggle room to throw the case against it out. -- doofus-9 16:05, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


Ah yes, sorry, I should have seen that about Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna. So best would be the use those booklets as the First Editions. Can you give me a transliteration for that Devanagari in the left column? --Sugit (talk) 18:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


Corrected sub-title. Shailendra states that the completed (and correct) title is "स्वर्ण पाखी था जो कभी और अब है भिखारी जगत का". And subtitle is "Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna". So wiki-title should be corrected. (A little later we will change it - request of Sugit).--DhyanAntar 18:20, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Before Apr 16 2017

All four volumes of Swarn Pakhi the über-series are somewhat to very obscure; only Bharat Jalte and Swarn Pakhi have been published since the 70s, but even those two publications are clouded by what might be called identity issues. See Bharat Jalte's discussion page and below for details. At least in the domain of audio, Swarn Pakhi is not just available but the master title for the others.

Discourse titles and number

One anomaly to be worked out regards the number of discourses. Few places offer any information at all about Swarn Pakhi the component volume beyond that it has ten discourses. But audio sites are consistent that there are 23 discourses in the über-series. Ten plus the others should add up to 24 though, so something is awry.

In 2014, the only place i could find with more specific info about the single-vol Swarn Pakhi was osho.com, which had a kind of TOC. It represents audio titles of course and is a bit strange in some respects, the most obvious being the numbering system. It is presented below as it was found:

     osho.com Jul 2014
0:
0:
1: क्रांति की वैज्ञानिक प्रक्रिया
2: क्रांति के बीच सबसे बड़ी दीवाल
3: प्रगतिशील कौन?
 
5: समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर: 1
6: समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर: 2
7: आज की राजनीति
8: भारत किस ओर
 
10: भारत के निर्णायक क्षण
11: नया भारत
     osho.com Mar 2017
 
 
1: क्रांति की वैज्ञानिक प्रक्रिया
2: क्रांति के बीच सबसे बड़ी दीवाल
3: प्रगतिशील कौन?
4: धरम और राजनीती -- Audio Not Available
5: समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर: 1
6: समाज परिवर्तन के चौराहे पर: 2
7: आज की राजनीति
8: भारत किस ओर
9: नए भारत की दिशा -- Audio Not Available
10: भारत के निर्णायक क्षण
11: नया भारत
     Osho World Mar 2017
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
21. भारत किस ओर
22. नये भारत की दिशा
23. भारत के निर्णायक क्षण
 

Leaving aside the 0's and the missing #4 and 9, one fact that emerges is that there are nine discourses surviving with real titles. For now let this be the gold standard, since it makes the sacred total come to 23.

Osho.com's new version has found the missing titles! How unhelpful can this be? As far as it goes, perfectly good, but the actual audio is still unavailable, and now there are eleven titles to reckon with. We are up the river without our sacred total of 23. And to make it worse, though OW has one of them available (or claims to), they have renumbered the meagre three that they do offer, so we can hardly know which end is up.

Since the text above in the first column was written, in Jul 2014, more audio TOC info has come to light. As sometimes happens, this has not made matters clearer but the opposite. It is presented beside the old in new columns for comparison, if it matters, with the older first column spatially adjusted for easier comparison (with like titles aligning).

And a small matter, being noticed more in audio titles: a spelling discrepancy between नए (nae) and नये (naye) (underlined in #9/22, "Direction for a new India"). -- updated doofus-9 16:44, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Dates and locations

Regarding dates and places, Neeten's Osho Source Book is the source with the most info, albeit in somewhat rough form. But there is only one entry for Swarn Pakhi per se, a single date in his Appendix, Apr 1, 1970 in Bombay. We may suppose that this is one of its discourses; the others may be scattered around discontinuously or may be all in one chunk, since there is a decent-size gap following that time (see Osho Timeline 1970). There IS a talk the day before, Mar 31, in Jabalpur, which may or may not be a conflict, ie travel time might be prohibitive.

The relevant section of the Appendix below has the one entry mentioned for Swarn Pakhi plus three entries for Samajwad Se Savdhaan, which can be understood as itself plus the other two volumes. It reads:

Samajwad Se Savdhaan. 13-17.03.1970. 5 talks. Bombay. [ie Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न)]
Vidroh Kya Hai? 31.03.1970. [the talk in Jabalpur]
Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi (India, Socialism, Gandhi, Communism). 01.04.1970. Bombay. (A)
Samajvaad Se Saavdhan. 13.04-17.04.1970. [ie the real Samajvad Se Savdhan (समाजवाद से सावधान)]
[ . . . ]
Samajwad Se Savdhaan. 08-11.08.1970. 4 talks. [ie Samajvad Arthat Atmaghat (समाजवाद अर्थात् आत्मघात)]

The two 1988 cover images

These two images are not conflicting with each other, nor purporting to offer alternative covers. Rather, they are alternative views of the same cover, different scans taken on different occasions. Because of the near-impossible design of the cover, possibly the worst cover since the low-budget days of early Mumbai, it is very difficult to see what is actually written. So the different views make it easier.

The main image, showing the dust jacket's spine, has two principal merits:

1. On that spine, it is clear that "Bharat Ke Jalte Prashan" is not part of this title at all. It is not there, period.
2. And the title that is there, is there clearly, it is easy to read, with one line for "Swarn Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi" and one line for "Aur Ab Hai Bhikari Jagat Ka". One might get the impression that it is all one title, but the front part of the dust jacket, aka the cover, makes a decent distinction between them by having them at right angles to each other.

The secondary image makes it easier to see the lettering on the cover, both by not having the glare of the first and by somehow making that gold lettering more visible, such lettering often being difficult against a dark background. Thus, we can actually see the "Bharat Ke Jalte Prashan" on the cover, even if it isn't on the spine, and even if its significance isn't clear. And we can read the rest of the lettering.

Cover image

About the 2003 edition and its title and other issues, first a few facts: The old version of this page was one of those which used the long title. And it supplied the only cover image for the book. And there are two bookseller sites which list the book. All three say the pub date was 2003 and the ISBN 8176210696 (equivalent to 9788176210696 in ISBN-13-speak). The old page says the publisher was Rebel, the booksellers Sadhana Foundations (sic).

The booksellers supply no cover image, so we are left with the teeny one that was still extant in 2008, when the old page was compiled. It is not much help however; between the low resolution and the creative design (dark lettering on a dark background) it is only possible to make out a few words. But there are a lot of words there on the cover. "Kabhi" is clear enough, and its position indicates where the first five words are. That position, 90º to the ones on the side, suggests the kind of superiority of rank, that a title might have over a subtitle, for example.

But to make too much of this would be overplaying a fairly weak hand. Unclarity will still have to rule. One indisputable reason lies in the impossible convolutedness of the title given by the booksellers: Swaran Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi Aur Ab Hain Bhikhari Jagat Ka : (bharat Ke Jalte Prashan). So where do these words fit on that cover? Does the Rebel cover even belong with the Sadhana title? And what about this "(bharat Ke Jalte Prashan)" in parentheses? Does it signify that it subsumes the rest, vice versa or neither? What to say of the title that comes with one of the purported editions of Bharat Jalte, "Bharat Ke Jalte Prashan SwarnPakhi Tha Jo Kabhi"? (See Talk:Bharat Ke Jalte Prashna (भारत के जलते प्रश्न).)

I could go on but will leave it for now to simmer. Updated 4 July 2014


And now it has simmered for a while. Revisiting that dreadful cover image again, we find more dim dark words appearing out of the dark background when we look at a blow-up at an angle to lighten it all and squint. These new words are ABOVE what is supposedly "Swaran Pakhi Tha Jo Kabhi". We can't make out what they are but they take roughly the space that भारत के जलते प्रश्न (Bharat Ke Jalte Prashan) would, ie with the right relative word lengths. And given all the preceding convolutednesses, what else could they be?

Thus it seems possible that Bharat Jalte has also had its day as an über-title, as has Samajwad Se Savdhan, as in Neeten's summary above. And given the price asked by the booksellers for this book, it must be for the whole collection, ie four vols in one, though no page counts are given. -- Sarlo (talk) 11:25, 17 August 2014 (PDT)