The Last Testament (Vol 1) ~ 18

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event type interview
date & time 4 Aug 1985 pm
location Jesus Grove, Rajneeshpuram
language English
audio Available, duration 1h 51min. Quality: good.
Live music after the interview.
online audio
video Available, duration 2h 5min. Quality: good.
online video
see also
online text find the PDF of this discourse
shorttitle LAST118
Most of the 166 interviews Osho gave during the Ranch era and World Tour (see The Last Testament (series)) have never been published in book form. They have been published on the CD-ROM though; there they appear under the titles The Last Testament (Vol 1) to (Vol 6).
CD-ROM on this chapter: This discourse is published in The Last Testament, Vol 1, chapter 29. See The Last Testament, Vol 1#Correspondence between this Book and the CD-ROM.
Clips from this interview have been used in the film The Last Testament - Interviews with World Media (1985).
Interview. Announcements by Ma Prem Savita : Mike Wolfe from KBND Radio
CD-ROM on this chapter: Mike Wolfe, KBND Radio, Bend, Oregon.
Question 1
Edited excerpt: 12min 14sec, parts of questions 1, 8-11 **
Bhagwan, my name is Mike Wolfe. I've been in the radio and television business -- in Washington D.C., Denver, Colorado -- so I've traveled a bit and got tired of the big cities and came to central Oregon. One of the things that I think is interesting to me, and will always make me remember you, is that I have a six-and-a-half-year old son who was also born on December 11th. So I will always remember Bhagwan's birthday.
I don't believe it was the same year, however.
The hospitality, I must say, in the beginning here that we have received.... And for those who are listening, there is of course controversy, maybe misrepresented controversy, that Rajneeshpuram is an armed camp. I have not seen that; that the people are cold and disinterested in those of us who live outside -- and I have not seen that. And I would say to you that I have not felt in many rooms in my life as much love as there is in this room right now. And I don't think people may realize that.
I want to talk first about the city of Rajneeshpuram which I had the opportunity to view and visit in a very quick way today, and ask if this developmental process, that maybe the outside world is not as familiar with as I now believe they should be, could in your mind develop into a prototype of what cities possibly could and should be?
Question 2
Question 3
Are the hostilities created or perpetrated by the lack of understanding and the absence, as it would appear to the outside world, of a willingness for the Rajneeshees to go out, rather than accept in, so people can learn more about them?
Question 4
But to be exposed to your world, to have some positive exposure -- there are people who hate this particular group, there are people within the group, I would imagine, who feel that and realize that hate outside. There are people who have absolutely no knowledge of what goes on here -- would it not be a good idea, not as a missionary, not reaching out to convert, but in fact to inform?
Question 5
But it seems that some of this hate -- using that word, since I brought it up -- is bred by fear, which is bred by something unknown. This is a mysterious world inside this valley.
Question 6
What kind of worth?
Question 7
So you're talking about that select group of risk-takers?
Question 8
What is... What is the future -- and I know you don't like to talk about the future or address yourself to it -- but what is the future of Rajneeshpuram? We got off the track a little bit. I wanted to talk about the development of the city, the technological development that I've seen today -- agriculturally, certainly the communal way of life. What do you view as the development of this valley for the people who are in this travel with you?
Question 9
What is your concern?
Question 10
Do you think that they do this because they are big business and that is the way to control people?
Question 10b
My God, I hope that... I can't picture all of us in this room chewing grass!
Question 10c
I do now!
Question 11
You know, psychologists tell us all of our problems are directed back to our mother, but now you're taking it so damn far back, I can't even comprehend it!
Question 12
Edited excerpt: 7min 46sec, parts of questions 1, 12-12b **
Is not the proclivity toward psychology appointments or psychiatry appointments -- where people are trying to essentially, as they state it, find out about themselves -- somewhat the same parallel as to what you're offering here in Rajneeshpuram?
Question 12b
I think it's even worse....
Question 13
If your thinking and your belief is as you state it -- and I assume certainly that it is -- and the world is in the chaos that it's in... I mean, this is about as screwed up as it can get maybe a little worse down the line, but I mean, it's pretty close to maximum.
Why then does not Bhagwan step forward, not as a savior of the world, not as a God, but as a man who has recognized what the problem is, has an idea of the solution, and make that available to those who do not know? Granted, it's available if they come here, but it is a massive journey to come here, and the road is terrible, by the way, which doesn't help, either....
Question 14
But you've become a man of the world.
Question 15
You have become a man who is very visible. Oh, but of course you have.
Question 16
The world press knows about Bhagwan. You must be one of the great show business teachers of all time.
Question 17
And I believe that's what you want to be. However, I think that at the same time, on a serious note -- well, am I correct or am I not? -- if your message is as you stated, would it not be to the benefit of all mankind if Bhagwan would take his show on the road?
Question 18
Edited excerpt: 10min 9sec, parts of questions 1 and 18 - 33b **
Well, I'm sure you are. But what I'm saying though, getting back again.... You know, I was intimidated.... I read in the Rajneesh Times, a recent article -- and on the back page is the kids' corner which was the only one I understood. And at the beginning of that column, a youngster had talked about how he was very excited about the press conference that was held here two weeks ago and the opportunity for the world press to gather and meet with you, and to hear what you had to say, but all he heard was the same old questions.
Now I have been racking my brain since the press kit which contained that particular edition came to me, trying to think of some other questions. But I'm just a pretty simple guy. What I see is, very simply, that you have some things to say that a lot of people at this point don't buy, which you may not care about. Why don't you care about it?
Question 19
But why shouldn't you care?... And we can play monopoly with this all the way through.
Question 20
You state that your interest is in the individual. Is that only the individual who is here, or within the Rajneesh group?
Question 21
Well, let me ask you this: You do not go out of the valley, but is it not correct that you spent three nights in bend at the Riverhouse motel a couple of weeks ago?
Question 22
Then someone is paying you the highest compliment because they are impersonating you.
Because it was told to me that you spent a Sunday night, a Monday night and a Tuesday night, with a nurse and a bodyguard. And you were seen in the jacuzzi and in the lounge and you were having a great time. So I wanted to know why they kept sniffing my hair today before I sat down to talk to you, because I know they didn't sniff everybody's hair at the riverhouse in bend, Oregon.
Those kinds of misdirected ideas -- if in fact you were not there -- sometimes break down a little credibility for Bhagwan, and I wonder if it's possible for what you are saying -- getting back to it somewhat seriously -- to be projected to those people who just don't understand.
Question 23
Well, you probably could buy the hotel if you wanted to.
Question 24
Your bathroom?
Question 25
Is that an invitation?
Question 26
I've never been invited to the bathroom before. I've been told I belonged in the bathroom before, but never invited to one.
Question 27
That is unique. But where do we go from there?
Question 28
And then get out... I understand! I need to know this for my own edification: Have you ever invited a member of the press to your bathroom before?
Question 29
I wonder if this could be love?
Question 30
Invited to the bathroom.... Well, I'm sure the listeners of this program are thinking you and I are going to start a nightclub act.
What is the potential -- since you were talking about this a moment ago -- of uniting the Western philosophy, which is somewhat materialistic, and the Eastern philosophy, which is traditionally not materialistic but is more an inner -- what would you call it -- an inner recognition of oneself?
Now you have done a magnificent job in many respects -- that diamond wristwatch of course is certainly not an Eastern philosophy -- and yet the rest of your presentation is somewhat Eastern. Is it possible for those two cultures to unite?
Question 31
And are they right?
Question 32
You're not materialistic?
Question 33
What is your secret, Bhagwan? I really think you're in the wrong business. I mean because of what you've just documented, you must be one of the world's great con men, it would seem.
Question 33b
And it takes a great man to admit that.
Question 33c
And it takes an equally great man to sit and accept it and revel in it, Bhagwan.
Question 34
I want to ask you a question about the former dead city of Antelope. This has of course created a great deal of controversy. I have only lived in this central Oregon area for about four and a half months. This is my first trip to this particular area. It was my first trip through Antelope, and I guess the question I would have to ask is: Why would anybody want Antelope? I mean what is the purpose and what are the plans? I don't see it becoming a resort area. I don't see it becoming an industrial area. There are people who live there for their own particular reasons, who of course don't think you're such a great man -- as I'm sure you're aware. What was the point?
Question 35
I didn't believe it today. I couldn't figure out what all the flack was about.
Question 36
What is it now?
Question 37
But they are trying?
Question 38
Was it constitutional to take it over in the first place?
Question 39
Is it an important enough question though, now that your city is established?
Question 40
And that stands now?
Question 41
Now you're not going to leave?
Question 42
And you're not going to invite any of those people into your bathroom?
Question 43
You will fight this as high as it must go?
Question 44
Their feeling was that you were controlling the election, I think, is that not correct?
Question 45
And that was rejected by the election commission last week.
Question 46
But, in defense of your actions, is not the Oregon election law, resident law -- I mean you can walk in and ten minutes later you can vote -- so antiquated that, on the bottom line, if you wanted to control the election -- which probably you did...
Question 47
... That you could bring these people in and that they could have voted legally in that election. Is that not correct?
Question 48
What did you bring the people in for?
Question 49
My God, I don't know if Oregon's ready for that!
Question 50
Well, the complaint though, in the bend area and in other areas, was that you brought them in and then you turned them loose.
Question 51
And that they then became wards of the various venues that they landed in, found themselves in... Found themselves intentionally breaking laws so that they would have....
Question 52
You provided them all a ticket?
Question 53
Is there any way for this segment of the general society to coexist with the government and the people of Oregon under the current structure of things? Can you guys get along with the folks outside? Is there a possibility of that?
Question 54
I mean, I don't care whether you want to or not, but no man or no group is an island, and I think that's probably the truth. And at some point there is going to have to be some cooperation in something. I know you answered at the press conference if there would be any possibility for coexistence, say with the people of what used to be Antelope, and your answer was no. But my question is: Is there the possibility that the Rajneeshees can become coexisting, not subservient, but coexist with the people of Oregon?
Question 55
Choose another word then, where the people of Oregon, where the state of Oregon is concerned, that the Rajneeshees could in fact accept.
Question 56
Coexistence, I think, does denote a hostility that is accepted.
Question 57
Well, I didn't want to come to the press conference, because I knew that you and I would get along very well, and I'd probably dominate the whole proceedings.
At the... At the risk of being redundant -- and these are the mechanical things, some of the other things that came out of the press conference talk to me for a minute about God, and the fact that your answer or response was, I believe, paraphrasing "he is man's greatest lie."
Question 58
Or she is man's greatest lie -- whichever the case may be.
Question 59
Let's talk again about your bathroom!
What about the question that came up at some point.... I had read so much about Rajneeshees and Bhagwan. Four and a half months in this area, I had now become so inundated with information.... Your chamber of commerce, your public relations department, sent me the world's largest press kit. In sixteen years I could not read everything that was in there, but I tried! The question that has come up is the Jim Jones problem, the parallel that has been drawn that this is in fact a religious fanatic who is controlling a cult of people who will do anything that he decides that they should do -- whether or not he decides that. I believe your answer was simply that the Christianity factor is not in existence here, that life after death is better than life during life. Is that the complete answer, and is it not probably safe to assume that in some respects the tragedy that happened at Jonestown was a result of people following an individual blindly, as opposed to a Christianity question?
Question 60
How about the people who say Bhagwan is nuts, and if they were to crucify you would the same thing happen?
Question 61
I saw three blacks today.
Question 62
For Jonestown?
Question 63
Who should be... (hanged)?
Question 64
Well, he wasn't in office then. The Pope at the time should have been hanged...?
Question 65
But then why not hang all the priests and the bishops and the cardinals and the archbishops...?
Question 66
But one of the great ploys in the human mind and maneuverability is for someone to say, "Don't do that," which makes them want to do it even more.
Question 67
No, no. Does that not put an awesome responsibility on you to have this kind of devotion?
Question 68
Is anyone here responsible for anyone else?
Question 69
Is anyone in the world responsible for anyone else?
Question 70
Quite luxuriously too.
Question 71
A marriage made in heaven, right?
Question 72
Then we'd have to change the whole structure of this planet. The entire planet would have to be changed.
Question 73
Would that be, in your mind, a healthy world?
Question 74
Well, would you do away at the same time when you talk about constructing genes and the DNA progress that's being made, and procreation and the entire picture -- would you do away with egos, would you do away with the competitive factor? Could you do away with all of the negatives like jealousy, like greed and things like that?
Question 75
So you're really talking then about a genealogical, bionic person, constructed?
Question 76
Does the world really want a superman?
Question 77
But this is where it has to start, or at least where our lifetime is concerned.
Question 78
This is not "the price is right" and you suddenly open the curtain and there is a superman -- it's the developmental process, the evolutionary process....
Question 79
Well, they accept it to heal, but not to create.
Question 80
I don't know if I buy all of that part of it. I see what you're saying but... I don't know if I'm ready to start accepting.... We've gone from your bathroom to creating superman and that is a giant, quantum leap for me.
Question 81
And for most people?
Question 82
But we're back to the acceptance of what Bhagwan says....
Question 83
And then they say, "What has he got for us today?"
Question 84
Couple of things, popular questions. There have been newspaper reports, television, radio, any other form of media that there may be, that the Rajneesh empire -- you excuse my word -- is crumbling, that there are major defections, some of the corporations are not doing as well financially, and sustaining themselves as it had appeared they were. True or false?
Question 85
Well, probably it's because your restaurant closed in Portland, did it not?
Question 86
Didn't business get a little bad?
Question 87
Didn't you have a business that just went bankrupt somewhere?
Question 88
I wonder who I was reading about. Where do they get these reports?
Question 89
But it does to those people who would like to think that your empire is not succeeding.
Question 90
Is this an empire? Is that a quote?
Question 91
I found it interesting that when someone asked you at the press conference if you wanted to take over all of Oregon and you said no, it was too small, you wanted the world, they probably took you seriously. Do you want to take over the world, Bhagwan?
Question 92
Are you involved in an effort to take over the world?
Question 93
When can we look for something like this to take place? Antelope today, the world tomorrow?
Question 94
Had they not forced you -- and I think we talked about this before and I wanted to clarify it -- had they not forced you, would you have given it back?
Question 95
I thought you said earlier that you would have. Not now.... I mean, had they cooperated.
Question 96
They'd never have to display their courage to me, riding that road two times a day, every day.
Question 97
Edited excerpt: 9min 06sec, parts of questions 97-102 **
I will take your word for it. Is there a heaven and is there a hell? And would you like to tell me what part of Oregon they are both in?
Question 98
You are a man who certainly, there is no doubt, loves the controversy that surrounds you.
Question 99
You are a man who I think would like to have every human being in this entire world at least to have heard about you.
Question 100
You are also a man with, without question, a magnificent sense of humor. And in order to rule this empire -- not rule, I'm sorry... You do not rule; you just live in this empire -- to accept all of the hassles and controversies and misrepresentations and probably some of the truths about yourself, you would have to have a great sense of humor.
Question 101
Let me stop you one second. I read in the office, in the welcome room -- what do you call it?... The visitors center -- that if the world could laugh, if everyone in the world could laugh over a twenty-four hour period it would change this entire malignancy that we all seem to live in. That's not what you said; that's what I said.
Question 102
Why? Why is it important, by comparison, to create enemies?
Question 103
What kind of a man are you? Not what you believe we've talked about that -- what your thinking is.
Question 104
Just a crazy old man? Somehow I felt that you would answer something like that.
Question 105
When you say, "Just a crazy man..." What does that mean?
Question 106
Mentally deranged?
Question 107
Well, in the interpretation of crazy, to some, that's what it means.
Question 108
Tomorrow I'm going to talk to some people who are involved in your city and I look forward to that. After that I'm going to talk to the former and current residents of our favorite subject, Antelope.
If you were to want me to say something to them during this conversation -- none of whom I've met -- what would it be, if anything?


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