Talk:Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra (धर्म साधना के सूत्र)

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Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld
audio,
Osho.com (*1)
1999 book ed. (*2),
Shailendra's PDF,
Oshoganga
Osho.com library Dates & Places
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 01 #1
incomplete
1. धर्म परम विज्ञान है
"incomplete"
1. धर्म परम विज्ञान है
incomplete
1. धर्म परम विज्ञान है
incomplete
1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 02 #2
first 8m 26sec is last part of ch.10 (*3)
3. ध्यान में मिटने का भय
first 8m 45sec is last part of ch.10 (*3)
2. ध्यान में मिटने का भय
it starts to match OW audio from 8:27
(first 1,5 sentences missing on both audios)
3. ध्यान में मिटने का भय am, 1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 03 (*4) #3 (*5)
beginning incomplete
2. परमात्मा की खोज (*5)
beginning incomplete
3. परमात्मा की खोज
missing text for last 2 min
2. परमात्मा की खोज
missing text for last 2 min
1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 04 #4 5. तीन सूत्र : बहना, मिटना, सर्व-स्वीकार 4. तीन सूत्रः बहना, मिटना, सर्व-स्वीकार 5. तीन सूत्रः बहना, मिटना, सर्व-स्वीकार am, 1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 05 (*4) #5 4. मनुष्य के अज्ञान का आधार 5. मनुष्य के अज्ञान का आधार 4. मनुष्य के अज्ञान का आधार 1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 06 #6 6. अमृत की उपलब्धि 6. अमृत की उपलब्धि 6. अमृत की उपलब्धि
missing last paragrah
1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 07 #7
last sentence incomplete
7. प्राणों की प्यास<br<missing last sentence 7. प्राणों की प्यास 7. प्राणों की प्यास 1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 08 #8 8. रहस्य का द्वार 8. रहस्य का द्वार 8. रहस्य का द्वार 1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 09 #9
incomplete
9. जीवन की वीणा का संगीत
incomplete
9. जीवन की वीणा का संगीत
incomplete
9. जीवन की वीणा का संगीत
incomplete
1965 ?
Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra ~ 10 (*4) #10
missing first sentence
10. प्रेम ही परमात्मा है
missing first sentence
10. प्रेम ही परमात्मा है 10. प्रेम ही परमात्मा है 1965 ?
Note: it seems current order of events are out of crono. order and we could not identify their sequence. Osho.com has other order for ch.2-4. Some analysis made at bottom of this page. Only known date, 20 Jun 1965 Bombay, did not found own event.

(*1) On Osho.com audios 3 and 4 as well as 9 and 10 are selling together. Osho Khajana collection (2010-2011 Osho.com) has other order of audios.

(*2) We assume book edition has the same incompleteness as Shailendra's PDF because the latter is OCRed book scan.

(*3) First part of both audios have part from another event (ch.10), beginning of this part matches to text from p.132 of Shailendra's PDF. These chapters seem different events.

(*4) Religious fanatics who keep on disturbing by chanting on loud speaker so that Osho cannot give discourse during ch.3. Chapter 5 and 10 were disturbed. In 5th talk they were succeeded: Osho spoke 4 min only.

(*5) Transcipt of last part of ch.3 which is missing in Shailendra's PDF (last 2 minutes of talk on audio):

"इसलिए आज एक ही सूत्र आपसे कहता हूँ और वो ये कि क्या आपकी जिंदगी में परमात्मा की प्रमाणिक प्यास है ? इस प्रश्न को बहुत ईमानदारी से अपने से पूछना। इसका जो भी उत्तर मिलेगा वो आपकी जिंदगी में परिवर्तन का कारण हो सकता है और मैं मानता हूँ कि अधिक को पता चलेगा कि प्यास नहीं है क्योंकि अगर प्यास होती तो मिलन हो गया होता। अगर प्यास होती तो दूरी कंहाँ थी ! प्यास की कमी एक मात्र दूरी है। प्यास का न होना ही एक मात्र फासला है और अगर ख्याल में आये कि प्यास नहीं है तो फिर पहले प्यास को पैदा करने की कोशिश ज़रूरी है। पीछे परमात्मा की खोज ज़रूरी है ये प्यास अपनी जिंदगी पर एक नज़र डालने से पैदा हो जाएगी। बचपन से आज तक की जिंदगी पर एक नज़र डाल के देख लेना उसमें कुछ है जिसका मूल्य है ? कुछ है जो परमात्मा को अर्पित किया जा सकता है ? कुछ है जो बचाने योग्य है ? अगर उसमें कुछ भी बचाने योग्य न दिखे तो भीतर जो खालीपन रह जाये वह जिंदगी का पहला मंदिर और पहला पड़ाव बन जाये। इस खालीपन के लिए थोड़ी सी बातें मैंने कही कल सम्भव हुआ क्योंकि कल का तो कभी कोई भरोसा नहीं है कल सम्भव हुआ तो आगे की बात आपसे में कहना चाहूँगा। जिन मित्रों को इस सम्बन्ध में कुछ भी पूछना हो वो कल लिख के दे देंगे। मेरी बातों को इतने प्रेम और शांति से सुना उससे अनुग्रहीत हूँ और अंत में परमात्मा से प्रार्थना करता हूँ कि सब को प्यास दे ताकि उसकी खोज हो सके। आप सब के भीटर बैठे परमात्मा को मेरा प्रणाम स्वीकार करें।"

Deliberations

Both "Doc X" and Neeten's Osho Source Book report Jun 20, 1965 and "Bombay", but which discourse number that applies to is not known. No other dates or locations yet found.

Rebel ISBN 81-7261-145-5 not even found by Google.

TOC below is audio titles from osho.com (it was changed on the site later). Most discourses are somewhat incomplete due to poor sound.

1: धर्म परम विज्ञान है
2: ध्यान में मिटने का भय
3: परमात्मा की खोज
4: तीन सूत्र : बहना, मिटना, सर्व-स्वीकार
5: मनुष्य के ज्ञान का आधार (Shailendra stated that third word is wrong, it should be अज्ञान)
6: अमृत की उपलब्द्धि (Shailendra stated that the last word is wrong, it should be उपलब्धि)
7: प्राणों की प्यास
8: रहस्य का द्वार
9: जीवन की वीना का संगीत और प्रेम ही परमात्मा है (Shailendra's e-book - जीवन की वीणा का संगीत)
10: प्रेम ही परमात्मा है

Dharm Sadhana Ke Sutra 1-10 Places.jpg

Update and comments resulting from another look at osho.com's audiobook offering, inspired by the newly arrived "Dates and Places" info from Jagdish, which unfortunately this time has only Places, no Dates. And even that is in conflict with the one shard of info from Neeten and Doc X. Oh well, here it is anyway fwiw.

No need for a text version of this image. About the update and comments, there was no change found in osho.com's presentation of this series as of today's writing.

talk #5. We will have to take Shailendra's word for this. Osho.com is sticking with ज्ञान. Shailendra's word अज्ञान is exactly the opposite, but he is usually right on such matters.
talk #6. Shailendra's correction is validated by G**gle Translate.
talk #9. Shailendra looks right here just based on common sense. His title words are the same as osho.com's at first (with a spelling correction, वीणा, validated by G**gle) but then osho.com adds और प्रेम ही परमात्मा है, which is just "and" #10's title, which, when followed by #10, looks just idiotic.

FWIW, #10's title resonates somewhat with the title suggested by Jagdish. It is by no means precisely, but close enough to say it is probably the same.


Hindi Books_Chronologic, Alphabetic, Subject wise list states: 10 talks, June 1965, Bombay. Place conflicts with Jagdish's place (Pubjab).--DhyanAntar 03:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC)


Osho was already in Jabalpur late at night of 22 Jun 1965. It means 21 Jun was last day of talks in Bombay. (Travel by train takes 20h.)

Hindi series of talks with dates (source document): "Dharma Sadhna ke Sutra, 1 talk, 20.6.65". Other source Osho Discourse Hindi List with dates (source document) confirms this date with 1 talk and the same title ("धर्म साधना के सूत्र").

Other list with dates from Anuragi (Hindi series of talks with dates 2 (source document)) confirmes this title, date and gives place Bombay. It is unclear what talk is meant...--DhyanAntar 17:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Extracts from text (source: google translation of Shailendra's PDF):

Ch.1: interview (q/a)

Ch.2: morning talk (second talk of a series?) + 2 questions about meditation + meditation (3 stages). "A friend arrived yesterday. Yesterday some hundred friends experimented deeply. Many of them have come and met me. A friend said that I thought I would not go mad now! That is the same fear, the same fear that I will not disappear." In the end: "We will not be able to use meditation tomorrow morning, because the audience is so crowded, entering inside, then it is not possible... Tomorrow, meditation will not be used in the morning, there will be discussion in the morning, I will talk about what you ask about meditation." "Whatever has happened, and many friends have happened a lot, you worked harder than yesterday." "Our morning meeting was over."

Ch.3: in missing last part in Shailendra's PDF Osho says about thirst (relation with ch.7? which dedicated to it?) and "Friends who want to ask anything in this regard, they will give it in writing tomorrow." (this sentence is from audio, which missing in Shailendra's PDF)

Ch.4: first talk of 3-days series, morning. "So here in these three days, in the morning at this hour, we will take a little dip on the journey of non-doing." "Three sutras for this preparation. These are just role sources. In this role, meditation can descend. The first sutra is what I call: the flowing feeling." Meditation experiement on this sutra. "The second sutra is: the matter of not happening, not happening, disappearing." Med. experiement. "The third sutra is for acceptance, total acceptance." Third med. experiement. "In this regard, if you have any questions, curiosities regarding meditation, you will give it by writing tomorrow morning. Here, for three days, the experiment that we will be able to understand, you are doing with this thought. But would not think that if it was done here for three days, then the matter was over." (It can be reference to ch.2 where Osho asnwers on two questions regarding meditation.) "Our morning meeting was over."

Ch.5: talk disturbed in beginning. "Let me explain my point with a short story. I have heard, a thief entered a man's house one dark night. His wife woke up and said to her husband, it seems that a thief has entered the house. That husband lying on his bed asked, who is it? The thief said, no one. That husband slept back. The night was stolen. In the morning his wife said..."

Ch.6: "So today I would like to talk about those chains, due to which the boat of the soul of man does not reach the ocean of God, stops." Ends by "You listened to my words with so much love and peace in these four days, I am deeply grateful to him."

Ch.7: "Yesterday I started some talk. If he tells you again, he must tell you. The thirst to discover oneself or to seek God is not born, because man does not learn anything from experience." and continue to talk about thirst (It can be relation with ch.3) "Yesterday I was telling a short story. I was saying, a thief entered a man's house. His wife has told the man, it seems there is a thief. So the man got up and went to that cell and asked, who is it? The thief said, no one! Nobody, sir! The man came back to sleep. When there is no one, there is no need to bother in vain. It was stolen that night. In the morning his wife said, you are mindless!" (Reference to ch.5) Ends by "But let us search for life from many dimensions, from many dimensions, perhaps from some corner your thirst will be aroused. And if the thirst is awakened then what to do, I will talk to you tomorrow in that regard. If there is no thirst, then there is no question of doing it. If you are thirsty, then something can be done. The lake is near, those who are thirsty will get it immediately. Those who are not thirsty - the lake is right behind the house - but those who are not thirsty can never be found."

Ch.8: "The first sutra I ask you to remember is that sometime in your life, sometime in the evening, stop and see what is found in this life. Just ask - by yourself, not by anyone else." "So the second source tells you that there is nothing in life, there is nothing in life. Don't get caught trying to make something happen in life...... This second sutra is also very important in the mind building of a religious person, that we should pass in life as if a person goes through water and water does not touch his feet..... That's why the second sutra is asking for your eligibility: Don't hold life, let it flow." "The third sutra I want to tell you is that what we see, what we hear, what we understand, is not everything. There is a lot that we don't see. There is a lot that we do not hear. There is much that we do not understand. This is also fair... Therefore, the third sutra tells you that what you see, to say, I can see till there; I won't see it next. Whoever comes in my hand, he is in my grip; I do not get ahead, I will not, I cannot take any decision..... That's why the third sutra tells you to keep on exploring the mystery every moment. Even when sun rises in the morning, find out where the mystery lies?... The third sutra is most important that your life be able to discover the secret." "These three sources tell you. Spread these formulas in a little life. And you will suddenly find that every day God is going to be your neighbor."

Ch.9: "What will be the reason behind this that we have dragged a man to the brink of death? The first thing I see is that the joy in a man's life, which he calls bliss, the moments have reduced. Life has become a long story of sorrow. And if there is so much misery in life..." "Do you know that as the misery of man has increased, another wonderful thing has increased, that is the means of entertainment. Have you ever thought that unhappy man invents the means of entertainment. A happy man is so happy that he does not need the means of entertainment, he is happy."

Ch.10: the talk disturbed in the end. "Religious man , not a believer is , not an atheist is. A religious man is not blind . Religious man eyes open can see that."

So, for sure i can say that ch.7 as given on next day of ch.5. Then it seems ch.8 can follow.

It seems also that ch.3 and 7 cab be related too.

And ch.4 and 2 can related as well, these two both morning talks of 3-day series. And it seems this is morning series.

The curious situation with ch.6: it is said it is last talk of 4-day session.

Too many uncertainty for me.--DhyanAntar 08:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


I searched Punjab places in Timeilnes 1965-1971. And... Osho Timeline 1968: 16-19 Oct 1968 Amritsar, 13-15 Dec 1968 Jalandhar; Osho Timeline 1969: 23-25 Apr 1969 (Amritsar), 3-5 Aug 1969 Ludhiana; Osho Timeline 1970: 29-31 Jan 1970 Amritsar, 21-24 Mar 1970 Ludhiana, 2-5 Jun 1970 Amritsar, 14-15 Jul 1970 Ajmer, 20-23 Aug 1970 Ludhiana (mornings are vacant).--DhyanAntar 09:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


Shailendra - Osho's Hindi books (source document): "10 talks, 1965".--DhyanAntar 10:05, 16 June 2020 (UTC)