View source for Talk:Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र)

===Current Undestanding===
{| class="wikitable"
! event !! audio,<br>OshoWorld (*1) !! audio,<br>Osho.com !! 2019 ebook ed. !! Shailendra's PDF !! Osho.com library !! Dates & Places (*2)
|-
| [[Kranti Sutra ~ 01]] || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur'' #13 || 1. सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्ति || 1. सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्ति || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or'' 15. सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्ति || 1. सिद्धान्त, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्त्ति || 13 Feb 1969 am, [[wikipedia:Vadodara | Baroda (now Vadodara)]], [[Meditation Camps|meditation camp]]
|-
| [[Kranti Sutra ~ 02]] || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur'' #14 || 2. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्ति || 2. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्ति || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or'' 16. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्ति || 2. भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्त्ति || 13 Feb 1969 pm, [[wikipedia:Vadodara | Baroda (now Vadodara)]], [[Meditation Camps|meditation camp]]
|-
| [[Kranti Sutra ~ 03]] || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur'' #15 || 3. दमन से मुक्ति || 3. दमन से मुक्ति || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or'' 17. दमन से मुक्ति || 3. दमन से मुक्त्ति || 14 Feb 1969, [[wikipedia:Vadodara | Baroda (now Vadodara)]], [[Meditation Camps|meditation camp]]
|-
| [[Kranti Sutra ~ 04]] || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Aur'' #16 || 4. न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण || 4. न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण || ''Sambhog Se Samadhi Ki Or'' 18. न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण || 4. न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण || 15 Feb 1969, [[wikipedia:Vadodara | Baroda (now Vadodara)]], [[Meditation Camps|meditation camp]]
|}

(*1) In OW's older offering of low-quality mp3s, these had numbers #15--#18. (In that low-quality audio series, #10 and #12 were missing: often the numbering of those LQ audios has proved meaningful). 
 
(*2) Source of dates is 1975 edition of ''[[Jeevan Kranti Ke Sutra (जीवन क्रांति के सूत्र) (2)]]''.

===Deliberations===
It was written, when this book was considered one with ''[[Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र) (compilation)]]'', that "This book apparently has nothing to do with ''[[Jeevan Kranti Ke Sutra (जीवन क्रांति के सूत्र)]]'' nor with ''[[Kranti-Sutra: Sakshi Bhav (क्रान्ति-सूत्र : साक्षी भाव)]]''". It now has to be added that it apparently has nothing to do with ''KS 2''. And we can also say that the "apparently" in the old observation has served well, since there now does seem to be a connection with ''JKKS'' which was not previously seen, and that is:

The source for the info regarding four audio discourses is osho.com. They are:
:1: सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्ति
:2: भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्ति
:3: दमन से मुक्ति 
:4: न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण

They are of modest length, all approx an hour, probably not enough to fill the 168 pages in the Diamond edition of ''KS 2''. The new twist is that these titles have been spotted in another context, none other than the Diamond edition of ''JKKS''. With this crossover, we have a serious tear in the fabric of reality. Or maybe there are just some errors somewhere. Anyway, in trying to guess what series has what text from what source, there are a few things to sort out, which may take a while. Here are some possibilities:

1. Osho.com appears to be the only source of audio for either version of ''Kranti Sutra''. So it may be out of line, and it has pulled these ''KS 1'' titles out of a hat or somewhere else. Supporting this possibility is Osho World's e-book version of ''Kranti Sutra'', not this one but ''KS 2'', which approximates the general idea of Diamond's 22-chapter book. Not that chapters are clearly indicated but there are spaces followed by what appear to be new chapter titles and no less than seventeen of these apparent titles match up with Diamond's titles in a similar order, four do not match in any way and one title is missing. And it can be observed that [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor Occam's Razor] might well apply here, in that the simplest resolution of the tangle of data might be to declare Osho.com's audio mistaken. Then we have just one ''Kranti Sutra'' with unknown source, or with the identity issues it already had (see below).

2. Audio is audio, and there's nothing wrong with Osho.com being the only one with audio. Osho World's e-book may be derived from Diamond's rogue book and at most can be said to endorse the possibility that Diamond's book is at least Osho's words, whatever the title. Supporting this idea is the impressive collection of errors Diamond has accumulated. They say that "Kranti Sutra in Hindu" was previously published as chapters 11-33 of ''[[Main Kahta Aankhan Dekhi (मैं कहता आंखन देखी)|"Main Kaheta Aukhan Dekhi"]]''. Astute arithmeticians will note that that would be 23 chapters, not 22. 

Following up the claim of its 22 chapters deriving from ''MKAD'', we find ''MKAD'' itself awash in a sea of ambiguities and anomalies which are explored over there. Suffice it to say that it would be difficult to find a way to come to 33 chapters for that series. Not one of the wildly divergent sources of info for that series would come close. 
:Update: A solid TOC for a later edition of ''MKAD'' has turned up and it does indeed have features that ''could'' validate Diamond's claims above. It has 43 chapters, and ch 11-33 are the incorporation of two whole but small previous books with 23 very short chapters, ie a cohesive unit that could fit the short 22-chapter ''KS-2''. 
:So at this point, there is no compelling reason to discard either of these ''KS'' books and so we'll continue to favour the third possibility below. -- <small>doofus-9 02:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)</small>

3. The possibility we are going with currently in the wiki is that both books exist and are independent and have different source material about which we cannot be very certain. So: Two books with the same name from the same era but with two different unknown sources. I know, i know! -- updated [[User:Sarlo|doofus-9]] ([[User talk:Sarlo|talk]]) 17:54, 21 March 2015 (UTC)