Talk:Main Kahta Aankhan Dekhi (मैं कहता आंखन देखी): Difference between revisions
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The principal source of the confusion surrounding and permeating this book appears to be | The principal source of the confusion surrounding and permeating this book appears to be wires crossed with ''[[Gahre Pani Paith (गहरे पानी पैठ)]]''. Thus it will be useful to explore the relationship of these two books, since their overlapping/merging is deep-rooted and long-standing. A good framework for dealing with all this can come from considering the amazing variety of choices for number of discourses. Various sources suggest four, six, seven, ten, thirteen, thirty-three and beyond. So: | ||
Four: In recent years, the Diamond and OMI editions have both had four chapters, with the same titles in the same order and with the page count the same order of magnitude. This is good, has an appearance of solidity. Six: According to [[Osho Books on CD-ROM|the CD-ROM]], ''[[Dimensions Beyond the Known]]'', ''MKAD's'' translation, has six chapter-discourses. This also seems like a relatively solid datum, corroborated by numerous editions of ''Dimensions''. Seven: Many of the Indian free download audio sites have seven mp3-discourses. Most will be based on Osho World's seven, but since they have no titles, this might be considered a little less solid, but, okay, let that fact be noted. | |||
For parallel-universe fans, let it also be noted that ''Gahre'' has its four-and-six aspects. The six is again the CD-ROM, ie it shows six discourse-chapters for ''Gahre's'' translation, ''[[Hidden Mysteries]]'', and the four is ''Gahre'' "itself." It is augmented by two one-chapter booklets on Jyotish, Indian Astrology, to make six in the translation. And a fairly useless factoid but nonetheless interesting: the 2012 Diamond edition of ''Gahre'' and the 2010 OMI edition of ''MKAD'' have exactly the same picture of Osho, not exactly a high-odds possibility. Got the hair on the back of your neck standing on end yet? | For parallel-universe fans, let it also be noted that ''Gahre'' has its four-and-six aspects. The six is again the CD-ROM, ie it shows six discourse-chapters for ''Gahre's'' translation, ''[[Hidden Mysteries]]'', and the four is ''Gahre'' "itself." It is augmented by two one-chapter booklets on Jyotish, Indian Astrology, to make six in the translation. And a fairly useless factoid but nonetheless interesting: the 2012 Diamond edition of ''Gahre'' and the 2010 OMI edition of ''MKAD'' have exactly the same picture of Osho, not exactly a high-odds possibility. Got the hair on the back of your neck standing on end yet? | ||
For ten we have, from Osho World again, an audiobook offering for the two Jyotish discourses, which they identify as "''Mai Kahta Ankhan Dekhi, 9 to 10''". You might wonder about the first eight chapters of ''MKAD'' in OW's audiobook section. Where and what are they? One has to dig deep but they do have at least 1 to 4 and, mirabile dictu, with the same titles as the other guys in the four-chapter TOC below. | |||
And we have "Doc X", giving dates for ''MKAD'' that have a few small mistakes but basically correspond to dates for the first four of ''MKAD'' plus the whole of ''Gahre'', plus the two Jyotish dates. This sort of aligns with the sort of ten of Osho World's audiobook (sans ''Gahre's'' four). | |||
The one source of the thirteen info has an excellent record of sorting out these kinds of discrepancies, and that is Tao Vision. So what do they have to offer this time? Well, they assert that ''MKAD'' is the über-name of an amalgamation of four smaller volumes: the four-discourse versions of ''MKAD'' and ''Gahre'', two discourses worth of Jyotish and a three-discourse volume called "Sannyas." This thirteen-theory can thus sort of account for all the other lower numbers AND for the confusion with ''Gahre''. Is that all there is to it? | |||
Well, not exactly. There is also [[Sw Anand Neeten|Neeten]] to consider. He has a few references to ''MKAD'' in his Osho Source Book (see link at his page) which muddy the waters at first but with some patience they will help, and a first edition cover image is not to be sniffed at. | |||
:From his Bibliography section: Main Kahata Akhem Dekhi (What I'm telling you I've seen with my own Eyes). Jevan Jagruti Kendra, 1971. 136 p. 1st ed. Colored front and back. Alt.t.: Hidden Mysteries. | |||
:From his Appendix: Main Kahta Akhan Dekhi (Dimensions Beyond the Known). 28.02.70-09.07.71.(1973). 7 talks. Bombay. (A) | |||
:and Main Kehata Ankhan Dekhi. 28.02-10.07.1971. 10 talks. Poona. | |||
:and from the Bombay section: the image used for the first cover, though without any info attached. | |||
Okay. | Okay. So Neeten has got into the spirit of entangling ''Gahre'' and ''MKAD''. His book cover image matches the description of the cover in his Bibliography section and though there is nothing on that cover to suggest ''Gahre'', either as a component of ''MKAD'' or whatever, the alt-title suggested is of course ''Gahre's'' translation title. And the 1971 pub date is a puzzler, as the CD-ROM says the final discourses of ''MKAD'' were not given until 1973. Can this be a misbegotten ''Gahre'' cover, even though it reads ''MKAD'' in Devanagari? Resolution awaits below. | ||
To finish off the numbers-of-discourses exploration, the 33 comes from a G**gle Books peek inside the 2006 Diamond Books edition of ''[[Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र) (2)]]''. Diamond says that ''Kranti'' was previously published as chapters 11-33 of ''MKAD''. We can quibble or not about the fact that it actually has only 22 chapters, not 23, but note that those 22 chapters are fairly short, only coming to 168 pages. Thus, if we consider what a 33-chapter ''MKAD'' might look like, it will not be the purported 525-page monster of the 1988 Tao edition. (How about 325? Could 525 be a mistake? What kind of scenario would 525 pages fit anyway, irrespective of ''Kranti''? Perhaps a 57-chapter version is lurking there.) | |||
And ya never know: In a G**gle Books peek inside the Diamond Books edition of ''[[Nav-Sannyas Kya? (नव-संन्यास क्या?)]]'', Diamond says that some of that book's material -- not clear what or how much -- is from ''MKAD'' discourse 34. This is in some ways too outrageous to be true, so it would be premature to give this rumour the same status as some of the other chapter count info, especially remembering that Diamond is the source of the rumour that ''Kranti'' was originally ch 11-33 of ''MKAD''. But ''Nav-Sannyas'' may resonate with the fourth component volume cited by Tao Vision, "Sannyas", in some way not yet apparent, so we'll keep it around. | |||
---- | ---- | ||
Meanwhile, the four-discourse chapter titles of OMI's | Meanwhile, the four-discourse chapter titles of OMI's and Diamond's recent books, and osho.com's and Osho World's audiobooks are all the same. This is the feature with the strongest resonance in all this vast array of infobits and rumours. To add to that, the Hindi blurb for the book describes it as autobiographical, in keeping with the autobiographical themes of the English chapter titles and indeed of the book's title (roughly "I am saying what my eyes have seen"), though these chapter titles seem unrelated to those of ''Dimensions'': | ||
:1. सत्य सार्वभौम है | :1. सत्य सार्वभौम है | ||
:2. चिन्मय कौन? अजन्मा क्या? | :2. चिन्मय कौन? अजन्मा क्या? | ||
| Line 36: | Line 31: | ||
:4. धर्म की गति ओर तेज हो! | :4. धर्म की गति ओर तेज हो! | ||
Possibly the features that have been the most misleading in this whole business are these English translations. Why, when most sources associate the two Jyotish chapters with ''MKAD'', were they grafted onto ''Gahre'' in ''Hidden Mysteries''? And where ''did'' those two other chapters of ''Dimensions'' come from? Were they ever published in another context? Is their original language even known? They may have been sensible English publishing decisions but as far as ''MKAD'' is concerned, it makes more sense to leave them out of any reckoning. Then we are not distracted by their 1973ness when considering the 1971 edition, which can now have an unambiguous four chapters. Yes! | |||
---- | ---- | ||
Finally, a note on transliteration. ''MKAD'' has more than its share of transliteration variety, with Mein, Mai, Kehta, Kahata, Akhan, Ankhan and more showing up. The good news is that it doesn't seem to interfere much with relatively complete searches, except that searches for Main and Mein don't find Mai. -- Updated [[User:Sarlo|doofus-9]] ([[User talk:Sarlo|talk]]) 16:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 16:55, 27 March 2015
The principal source of the confusion surrounding and permeating this book appears to be wires crossed with Gahre Pani Paith (गहरे पानी पैठ). Thus it will be useful to explore the relationship of these two books, since their overlapping/merging is deep-rooted and long-standing. A good framework for dealing with all this can come from considering the amazing variety of choices for number of discourses. Various sources suggest four, six, seven, ten, thirteen, thirty-three and beyond. So:
Four: In recent years, the Diamond and OMI editions have both had four chapters, with the same titles in the same order and with the page count the same order of magnitude. This is good, has an appearance of solidity. Six: According to the CD-ROM, Dimensions Beyond the Known, MKAD's translation, has six chapter-discourses. This also seems like a relatively solid datum, corroborated by numerous editions of Dimensions. Seven: Many of the Indian free download audio sites have seven mp3-discourses. Most will be based on Osho World's seven, but since they have no titles, this might be considered a little less solid, but, okay, let that fact be noted.
For parallel-universe fans, let it also be noted that Gahre has its four-and-six aspects. The six is again the CD-ROM, ie it shows six discourse-chapters for Gahre's translation, Hidden Mysteries, and the four is Gahre "itself." It is augmented by two one-chapter booklets on Jyotish, Indian Astrology, to make six in the translation. And a fairly useless factoid but nonetheless interesting: the 2012 Diamond edition of Gahre and the 2010 OMI edition of MKAD have exactly the same picture of Osho, not exactly a high-odds possibility. Got the hair on the back of your neck standing on end yet?
For ten we have, from Osho World again, an audiobook offering for the two Jyotish discourses, which they identify as "Mai Kahta Ankhan Dekhi, 9 to 10". You might wonder about the first eight chapters of MKAD in OW's audiobook section. Where and what are they? One has to dig deep but they do have at least 1 to 4 and, mirabile dictu, with the same titles as the other guys in the four-chapter TOC below.
And we have "Doc X", giving dates for MKAD that have a few small mistakes but basically correspond to dates for the first four of MKAD plus the whole of Gahre, plus the two Jyotish dates. This sort of aligns with the sort of ten of Osho World's audiobook (sans Gahre's four).
The one source of the thirteen info has an excellent record of sorting out these kinds of discrepancies, and that is Tao Vision. So what do they have to offer this time? Well, they assert that MKAD is the über-name of an amalgamation of four smaller volumes: the four-discourse versions of MKAD and Gahre, two discourses worth of Jyotish and a three-discourse volume called "Sannyas." This thirteen-theory can thus sort of account for all the other lower numbers AND for the confusion with Gahre. Is that all there is to it?
Well, not exactly. There is also Neeten to consider. He has a few references to MKAD in his Osho Source Book (see link at his page) which muddy the waters at first but with some patience they will help, and a first edition cover image is not to be sniffed at.
- From his Bibliography section: Main Kahata Akhem Dekhi (What I'm telling you I've seen with my own Eyes). Jevan Jagruti Kendra, 1971. 136 p. 1st ed. Colored front and back. Alt.t.: Hidden Mysteries.
- From his Appendix: Main Kahta Akhan Dekhi (Dimensions Beyond the Known). 28.02.70-09.07.71.(1973). 7 talks. Bombay. (A)
- and Main Kehata Ankhan Dekhi. 28.02-10.07.1971. 10 talks. Poona.
- and from the Bombay section: the image used for the first cover, though without any info attached.
Okay. So Neeten has got into the spirit of entangling Gahre and MKAD. His book cover image matches the description of the cover in his Bibliography section and though there is nothing on that cover to suggest Gahre, either as a component of MKAD or whatever, the alt-title suggested is of course Gahre's translation title. And the 1971 pub date is a puzzler, as the CD-ROM says the final discourses of MKAD were not given until 1973. Can this be a misbegotten Gahre cover, even though it reads MKAD in Devanagari? Resolution awaits below.
To finish off the numbers-of-discourses exploration, the 33 comes from a G**gle Books peek inside the 2006 Diamond Books edition of Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र) (2). Diamond says that Kranti was previously published as chapters 11-33 of MKAD. We can quibble or not about the fact that it actually has only 22 chapters, not 23, but note that those 22 chapters are fairly short, only coming to 168 pages. Thus, if we consider what a 33-chapter MKAD might look like, it will not be the purported 525-page monster of the 1988 Tao edition. (How about 325? Could 525 be a mistake? What kind of scenario would 525 pages fit anyway, irrespective of Kranti? Perhaps a 57-chapter version is lurking there.)
And ya never know: In a G**gle Books peek inside the Diamond Books edition of Nav-Sannyas Kya? (नव-संन्यास क्या?), Diamond says that some of that book's material -- not clear what or how much -- is from MKAD discourse 34. This is in some ways too outrageous to be true, so it would be premature to give this rumour the same status as some of the other chapter count info, especially remembering that Diamond is the source of the rumour that Kranti was originally ch 11-33 of MKAD. But Nav-Sannyas may resonate with the fourth component volume cited by Tao Vision, "Sannyas", in some way not yet apparent, so we'll keep it around.
Meanwhile, the four-discourse chapter titles of OMI's and Diamond's recent books, and osho.com's and Osho World's audiobooks are all the same. This is the feature with the strongest resonance in all this vast array of infobits and rumours. To add to that, the Hindi blurb for the book describes it as autobiographical, in keeping with the autobiographical themes of the English chapter titles and indeed of the book's title (roughly "I am saying what my eyes have seen"), though these chapter titles seem unrelated to those of Dimensions:
- 1. सत्य सार्वभौम है
- 2. चिन्मय कौन? अजन्मा क्या?
- 3. आकाश जैसा शाश्वत है सत्य
- 4. धर्म की गति ओर तेज हो!
Possibly the features that have been the most misleading in this whole business are these English translations. Why, when most sources associate the two Jyotish chapters with MKAD, were they grafted onto Gahre in Hidden Mysteries? And where did those two other chapters of Dimensions come from? Were they ever published in another context? Is their original language even known? They may have been sensible English publishing decisions but as far as MKAD is concerned, it makes more sense to leave them out of any reckoning. Then we are not distracted by their 1973ness when considering the 1971 edition, which can now have an unambiguous four chapters. Yes!
Finally, a note on transliteration. MKAD has more than its share of transliteration variety, with Mein, Mai, Kehta, Kahata, Akhan, Ankhan and more showing up. The good news is that it doesn't seem to interfere much with relatively complete searches, except that searches for Main and Mein don't find Mai. -- Updated doofus-9 (talk) 16:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
