Talk:Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र) (compilation)
The Story
It was written, when this book was considered one with Kranti Sutra (क्रांति सूत्र), that "This book apparently has nothing to do with Jeevan Kranti Ke Sutra (जीवन क्रांति के सूत्र) nor with Kranti-Sutra: Sakshi Bhav (क्रान्ति-सूत्र : साक्षी भाव)". For KS 2, it has to be added that it apparently has nothing to do with KS 1. And we can now also say that the "apparently" in the old observation has served well, since there now does seem to be a connection with JKKS which was not previously seen, and that is:
The idea of four audio discourses for Kranti Sutra comes from osho.com, which even has titles for them:
- 1: सिद्धांत, शास्त्र और वाद से मुक्ति
- 2: भीड़ से, समाज से--दूसरों से मुक्ति
- 3: दमन से मुक्ति
- 4: न भोग, न दमन--वरन जागरण
These titles have been spotted in another context, none other than the Diamond edition of JKKS. With this crossover, we have a serious tear in the fabric of reality. Or maybe there are just some errors somewhere. Anyway, in trying to guess what series has what text, there are a few things to sort out, and it may not happen for a while. Here are some possibilities:
1. Osho.com appears to be the only source of audio for either version of Kranti Sutra. So it may be out of line, and it has pulled these KS 1 titles out of a hat or somewhere else. Supporting this possibility is Osho World's e-book version of Kranti Sutra, this one, KS 2, which approximates the general idea of Diamond's 22-chapter book. Not that chapters are clearly indicated but there are spaces followed by what appear to be new chapter titles and no less than seventeen of these apparent titles match up with Diamond's titles in a similar order, four do not match in any way and one title is missing.
2. Audio is audio, and there's nothing wrong with Osho.com being the only one with audio. Osho World's e-book may be derived from Diamond's rogue book and at most can be said to endorse the possibility that Diamond's book is at least Osho's words, whatever the title. Supporting this idea is the impressive collection of errors Diamond has accumulated. They say that "Kranti Sutra in Hindu" was previously published as chapters 11-33 of "Main Kaheta Aukhan Dekhi". Astute arithmeticians will note that that would be 23 chapters, not 22.
Oh well. Leaving aside other possibilities for now, it must also be said that MKAD itself is awash in a sea of ambiguities and anomalies which are explored over there. Suffice it to say that it would be difficult to find a way to come to 33 chapters for that series. Not one of the wildly divergent sources of info for that series would come close. It may be better to leave MKAD out of this for now. -- doofus-9 (talk) 07:45, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
- But then, a couple of years down the road, more possibilities than were seen as reasonable in those more blinkered days have come to be seen as well, reasonable. A decent TOC for a later MKAD has turned up and lo, it has 43 chapters, with ch 11-33 a cohesive part of it, representing two complete small books, with 23 very short chapters. Still not 22 but we can't quibble too much about that.
- And the fact that neither of the two possibilities above is compelling means that maintaining the two KS pages will continue to look reasonable. -- doofus-9 08:30, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
The Resolution, and TOC
In the 2015 edition, now available to the wiki, the errors of the previous "editions" are all perpetuated, but now we have access, via a real Hindi helper, to the whole text, and it turns out that there are in fact 23 chapters, they are just not all listed in the TOC; and they do correspond to ch 11-33 of MKAD. So Hallelujah! So without further ceremony, we present the TOC below, with the last chapter added in by me to fill it out. More comments below ...
- 11. मैं कौन हूं . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
- 12. धर्म क्या है? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17
- 13. विज्ञान की अग्नि में धर्म और विश्वास . . . . . . . 21
- 14. मनुष्य का विज्ञान . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .29
- 15. विचार के जन्मा के लिए : विचारों से मुक्ति . . . . 34
- 16. जीएं और जानें . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47
- 17. शिक्षा का लक्ष्य . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .51
- 18. जीवन-संपदा का अधिकार . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55
- 19. समाधि योग . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59
- 20. जीवन की अदृश्य जड़ें . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63
- 21. अहिंसा क्या है? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67
- 22. आनंद की दिशा . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 71
- 23. मांगो और मिलेगा . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .77
- 24. प्रेम ही प्रभु है . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83
- 25. नीति, भय और प्रेम . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .89
- 26. अहिंसा का अर्थ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95
- 27. मैं मृत्यु सिखाता हूं . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 99
- 28. यह मन क्या है? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .105
- 29. जो बोएंगे बीज वही काटेंगे फसल . . . . . . . . . . 117
- 30. मृत्यु और परलोक . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .127
- 31. भगवत-प्रेम . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 137
- 32. जागते-जागते . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .147
- 33. ब्रह्म के दो रूप . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .not in TOC
Chapter numbers above are as in MKAD. None are given in KS' TOC.
. . . . to be continued . . . . doofus-9 05:20, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Not quite, a few differences of MKAD:
- 11th - मैं कौन हूं? (question mark)
- 31st - भगवत्-प्रेम
--DhyanAntar 08:39, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
And continuation happens . . . wherein and whereby we flesh out some more of the details of the infinite fractal-like replicating of compilation and distillation that has characterized this set of Osho's books. And wherein we come to realize that there is no resolution, nor is one possible, sort of like the illusion of science, that, if we study hard enough and refine our tools enough, the quest for explanations of everything in the universe will succeed, there is no question that is unanswerable ...
STOP!
Kurt Gödel has already proven that categorically wrong in 1931 when he was 25 years old, but most scientists do not want to believe it, so they carry on. The equivalent mirage in Osho Bibliography is that if we dig into different editions and titles enough, we can find out the truth of where each chapter has come from and where it ended up. Recent info on KS's contents suggests it all may be too infinitely complicated to sort out, going deeper and deeper with no end in sight. Ah well, here it is anyway, the latest installment.
It goes like this, considering the last six chapters from MKAD, which are the Amrit Vani (अमृत वाणी) chapters, that is, in the MKAD TOC, chapters 28 to 33 are indicated as deriving from Amrit Vani. But Amrit Vani is itself a compilation. Looking at just these six chapters, we find their sources are:
| MKAD ch # and Title | KS ch # | original source(s) |
|---|---|---|
| 28 -- यह मन क्या है? | 18 | Nirvan Upanishad # 11 |
| 29 -- जो बोएंगे बीज, वही काटेंगे फसल | 19 | Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 6 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय ६), # 3 |
| 30 -- मृत्यु और परलोक | 20 | Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 4 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय ४), # 13 |
| 31 -- भगवत्-प्रेम | 21 | Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 4 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय ४), # 18 |
| 32 -- जागते-जागते (in 4 parts) | 22 | |
| part 1 - परमात्मा की चाह नहीं हो सकती | part 1 | Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 4 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय ४), #14 |
| part 2 - भागे हिरन और भटके राम | part 2 | Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 4 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय ४), #13 |
| part 3 - पाप कभी पुण्य से नहीं कटता | part 3 | Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 4 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय ४), #15 |
| part 4 - धर्म संस्थापनार्थाय | part 4 | Geeta-Darshan, Adhyaya 4 (गीता-दर्शन, अध्याय ४), #5 |
| 33 -- ब्रह्म के दो रूप | 23 | Ishavasyopanishad # 10 |
Needless to say, most or all of these sources are not whole discourses, but parts. Source for this info is Shailendra. That info was for a while somewhat garbled, which led in part to the miasmic writing above, but responsibility is still all mine. -- doofus-9 23:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- Checked 1st (for source used Shailendra's PDF) and 3rd columns of above table - they all parts. Corrected two ch.numbers. Detailed report given in Current Understanding table of Talk:Main Kahta Aankhan Dekhi (मैं कहता आंखन देखी).--DhyanAntar 13:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
