Talk:Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun (माटी कहै कुम्हार सूं)

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The first sentence of the old discussion here referred to "a lot of information about this book but mostly fragmentary, not in a coherent whole". This could also have been said about the discussion, so it has been re-organized into themes. Within each theme, comments of more than one vintage may appear, so they are time-stamped accordingly. It should also be added that the book itself is very much a shape-shifter. Different talks from different places come and go in different editions, making it very difficult to say anything coherent about Mati as a whole.

Before we go into the discussions, which are ongoing, of the various aspects of Mati's convoluted history and so on, we present our current best understanding of the origin of each of Mati's component chapters/talks. Please note that no known edition has all of these talks.

Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld
audio,
Osho.com
1980, 2014 (*1) book ed. Shailendra's PDF Osho.com library Dates & Places
Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun ~ 01 #1 1. परमात्मा सरल है 1. परमात्मा सरल है 1. परमात्मा सरल है 1. परमात्मा सरल है 18 May 1968 pm, Junagadh, meditation camp
Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun ~ 02 #2
missing last two paragraphs
2. अहंकार है दूरी
missing last two paragraphs
2. अहंकार है दूरी 2. अहंकार है दूरी 2. अहंकार है दूरी 19 May 1968 am, Junagadh, meditation camp
Rom Rom Ras Peejiye ~ 03 #3 (complete)
also as Rom Rom Ras Peejiye #3 (missing first 2,5 sentences)
3. जिज्ञासा और खोज (complete)
also as Rom Rom Ras Peejiye 3. (no title) (missing first 2,5 sentences)
3. जिज्ञासा और खोज (complete) 3. जिज्ञासा और खोज (complete)
also as Rom Rom Ras Peejiye 3. बच्चों को विश्वास नहीं, जिज्ञासा सिखाएं (missing first 2,5 sentences)
available as Rom Rom Ras Peejiye 3. बच्चों को विश्वास नहीं, जिज्ञासा सिखाएं (text complete) 14 Apr 1967 om **, Shardagram, Mangrol, Gujarat (*2)
Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun ~ 04 #4
in the end Osho's instruction for meditation not included in the book (12sec) (*3)
4. प्रेम की सुगंध
in the end Osho's instruction for meditation not included in the book (12sec) (*3)
4. प्रेम की सुगन्ध 4. प्रेम की सुगंध 3. प्रेम की सुगंध 20 May 1968 pm, Junagadh, meditation camp (*4)
Mati Kahai Kumhar Sun ~ 05 #5 Jeevan Rahasya 13. जीवन क्या है 5. जीवन क्या है 5. जीवन क्या है? Jeevan Rahasya 13. जीवन क्या है? 11 Dec 1970 pm (or am?), Woodlands, Bombay (*5)
Jeevan Ras Ganga ~ 01 #6 Jeevan Ras Ganga 1. परंपरा के पत्थर 6. परंपरा के पत्थर Jeevan Ras Ganga 1. परंपरा के पत्थर 7 Apr 1968 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Jeevan Ras Ganga ~ 02 #7 Jeevan Ras Ganga 2. परंपराओं से मुक्ति 6. परम्पराओं से मुक्ति
missing first paragraph
7. परंपराओं से मुक्ति Jeevan Ras Ganga 2. परंपराओं से मुक्ति 8 Apr 1968 am, Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay (Q&A)
Jeevan Ras Ganga ~ 03 #8 Jeevan Ras Ganga 3. विस्मय का भाव 8. विस्मय का भाव Jeevan Ras Ganga 3. विस्मय का भाव 8 Apr 1968 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Jeevan Ras Ganga ~ 04 #9 Jeevan Ras Ganga 4. रहस्य का बोध 9. रहस्य का बोध Jeevan Ras Ganga 4. रहस्य का बोध 9 Apr 1968 am, Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay (Q&A)
Jeevan Ras Ganga ~ 05 #10 Jeevan Ras Ganga 5. दुखवाद के प्रति विद्रोह 10. दुखवाद के प्रति विद्रोह Jeevan Ras Ganga 5. दुखवाद के प्रति विद्रोह 9 Apr 1968 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay (*6)
Jeevan Ras Ganga ~ 06 #11 Jeevan Ras Ganga 6. व्यवहार का पाखंड 11. व्यवहार का पाखंड Jeevan Ras Ganga 6. व्यवहार का पाखंड 10 Apr 1968 am, Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay (Q&A)
Jeevan Ras Ganga ~ 07 #12 Jeevan Ras Ganga 7. अहंकार—मृत्यु का सूत्र 12. अहंकार--मृत्यु का सूत्र Jeevan Ras Ganga 7. अहंकार--मृत्यु का सूत्र 10 Apr 1968 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay
Ek Ek Kadam ~ 01 Ek Ek Kadam #1 Ek Ek Kadam 1. भारत का भाग्य 7. भारत में विचार-क्रान्ति Ek Ek Kadam 1. भारत का भाग्य Ek Ek Kadam 1. भारत का भाग्य 16 Feb 1969, Anand (GJ)

(*1) 2014 book edition has the small insignificant differences in chapter titles.

(*2) This event belongs to other series Rom Rom Ras Peejiye (रोम रोम रस पीजिए) (#3) as it fits better with its ch.2. Osho says in beginning of talk #3, before answering to questions, "First of all, in the morning I said, what we do not know, we should know very well that we do not know." and he was talking about it much in ch.2 of Rom Rom, morning talk on 14 Apr 1967. In the end of event: "There are some more questions, that night I will talk to you." and in ch.4 of Rom Rom, Osho starts to answer to question. This talk on Osho.com available only as part of Rom Rom. This talk is missing in OMI 2016 edition of Mati.
The text of this ch.3 of Mati matches to ch.3 of Rom Rom Ras Peejiye, although the text of the latter is incomplete a little in the beginning.
Plus there is some confused dating: the 1980 RF book edition gives 19 May 1968 om (afternoon). Jagdish at first gives 20 May 1968 om, but on other paper (third image) Jagdish left this event out and only gave 3 talks for Mati series. It was perhaps inevitable that confusion would arise here, as talks 1, 2 and 4 are from a camp-like series in Junagadh, so why not ch 3? And Mangrol is part of Junagadh District.

(*3) Transcribed text: "अब हम दस मिनिटे के लिए ध्यान में बैठेंगे। तो थोड़े फासले पर हो जायेंगे अगर कोई आपको छु रहा तो थोडा बाहर निकल आयेंगे। और बातचीत बिलकुल भी नहीं करेंगे। आवाज़ ज़रा भी नहीं करेंगे।"

(*4) 1980 RF book edition gives date 21 May 1968 pm meanwhile Jagdish - 20 May 1968 pm. The camp lasted for 3 days, so we chose to follow 18-20 May (Jagdish) as ch.2 has relation with ch.1 ("Lord's achievement is simple, last night I told you a few things about it."). FWIW, Osho in ch 2 also mentions that he will speak later, in the evening, ie of 19 May. As ch 4 is in the evening of 20 May, there is certainly room for a talk to have happened on 19 May pm and also on 20 May am, but it is unknown what might have happened to these potential talks.

(*5) Again mismatch date given in 1980 book edition with Jagdish data: 1980 ed. - morning, Jagdish - evening. Unclear what is correct? This event is called "Janmadin Hai Ya Mrityu Din" (जन्मदिन है या मृत्यु दिन = Birthday or death day) in Hindi series of talks with dates (source document) and as "janma – din hai ya mrityu – din?" in Rabia Osho books (source document).

(*6) This event published in Anand Ganga (आनन्द गंगा), ch.6.

Deliberations

TOCs

Mati Kahe 2011 contents.jpg
OW audio titles: Hind 2011/2014 TOC

1. परमात्मा सरल है
2. अहंकार की दूरी
3. जिज्ञासा और खोज
4. प्रेम की सुगंध
5. जीवन क्या है?
6. परंपरा के पत्थर
7. परंपराओं से मुक्ति
8. विस्मय का भाव
9. रहस्य का बोध
10. दुखवाद के प्रति विद्रोह
11. व्यवहार का पाखंड
12. अहंकार--मृत्यु का सूत्र

1. परमात्मा सरल है
2. अहंकार की दूरी
3. जिज्ञासा और खोज
4. प्रेम की सुगंध
5. जीवन क्या है?
6. परंपराओं से मुक्ति
7. भारत में विचार-क्रांति
 
 
 
 
 

[Original audio TOC ~ June 2014]


Sep 2017 update: With some solid scans of the 2011/2014 Hind edition, we are now in a position to say a bit more: The ambiguity of the dates arises from the fact that the 2014 "edition" is clearly labelled a reprint of the 2011. The ISBN situation may still be a mess, but 9788121605021 (with its hyphens) clearly belongs to Hind 2011/2014. The fact of 191 pages for that issue is held over from previous info, and is close enough to align with the scan info.

The big new thing (such as it is) with the Hind edition info is the chapter titles. It's not radically different but worth noting. It has only seven chapters, as can be seen from its anukram (TOC) page (image above right). Six of them almost correspond to the first seven of the audios above, with Hind having the first five identical (save the above-mentioned small change in ch 2), omitting the 6th, moving the 7th ahead to its 6th and having a completely new title for its 7th, भारत में विचार-क्रांति. I have inserted a second column above for easy comparison. -- doofus-9 17:21, 7 September 2017 (UTC)


TOC of Shailendra's e-book is the same as OW's.--DhyanAntar 09:16, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Miscellaneous edition stuff

There is a lot of information about this book but mostly fragmentary, not in a coherent whole. As well, there is a great deal of inconsistency, and info leaking from one edition to another. Details about all the edition stuff follow, but first a couple of more general features, which also venture into inconsistency, and which may give an idea of how it's going to go with the editions.

[snipped here was material shifted to "Dates and Places"]

Regarding the editions, the 2003 Rebel edition is also attributed to the ever-mysterious Sadhana Foundation but only Sadhana has an ISBN and the two covers are different, though similar. I have not reproduced the Sadhana cover here since it has a bookseller's proprietary stamp on it.

Still nothing particularly weird about any of that. It is with the Hephaestus and Hind editions that we truly lurch into The Twilight Zone. Besides fairly common things like the pub date changing from one site to another (2011, 2014, unspecified), there is an unprecedented variation and leaking of ISBNs. Most sites, if they report an ISBN at all, will have both the ISBN10 and the ISBN13. Here we have two ISBN13's and two ISBN10's used by Hind for the same book and the same number(!) also used by Hephaestus, and they come in nearly every combination of -13 and -10: 9788121605028, 9788121605028, 8121605024 and 8121605028.

A few other things, to return us back to nearly normal: The subtitle on the 2011/2014 edition translates roughly as "That sex is central in life is just a fact. Your condemnation does not remove it from that center." It is assumed to be on the other cover, though the image resolution is too low to confirm that 100%.

And lastly, there are the good old transliteration issues, and for good measure, one on the Devanagari end. First, that one: कहे (Kahe) reads कहै (Kahai) in the earlier edition images that are available. This may reflect an evolution in the Devanagari spelling of that word rather than a mistake. In any case, it is rendered almost always as Kahe in Roman characters, even with कहै on the cover. Kumhar appears variously as Kumahar and Kumar. And सूं SHOULD be rendered as Sun, not Su, but never is, but sometimes it is Se. The other variations, ie on कहे and कुम्हार, are NOT found in searches, ie Kahe does not find Kahai and vv. They have to be tried each separately. "Su" finds all its variations. -- Sarlo (talk) 10:02, 14 June 2014 (PDT)


And for the record, let it be known that o.com is out there alone in getting its transliteration right, at least on their audiobook page, with "Mati Kahai Kumhar Soon". -- doofus-9 17:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Dates and Places

Osho World and osho.com both have blurbs about the book but they seem to be talking about very different books. Osho World's blurb -- ओशो द्वारा दो साधना शिविरों में दिए गए ग्यारह अमृत प्रवचनों का संकलन -- refers to eleven discourses (not twelve) taken from two different meditation camps. The relevant portion of osho.com's blurb -- ध्यान साधना शिविर, जूनागढ़ में ध्यान-प्रयोगों एवं प्रश्नोत्तर सहित ओशो द्वारा दिए गए चार अमृत प्रवचनों का अपूर्व संकलन -- refers to a single camp at Junagadh, with only four discourses. Okay, must be different editions, with osho.com's much shorter, perhaps the 48-pager from Hephaestus. Not too difficult, is it? Let's see. ~ June 2014


Mar 2017 update: Both osho.com and Osho World have updated their audiobook blurbs. O.com has dropped any mention of a Junagadh camp, so the account above and in the article's description shall have to be the only record of that, but they still have only four discourses. OW still has all twelve but they have corrected the eleven to twelve in the blurb.

O.com's four discourses have the same titles as the first four of OW except #2 is अहंकार है दूरी instead of अहंकार की दूरी: "ego is distance" rather than "distance of ego". If it matters. We might gather then that the first four are the Junagadh camp, the fifth and possibly others from Mumbai and then another camp. ¿Quien sabe? ~ March 2017


The new big deal today [Dec 24 2018, superseded below] is info about dates and locations for the discourses of Jeevan Ras Ganga (जीवन रस गंगा), which also points out that JRG is one of the "camps" referred to above that were sources for Mati. The correspondence is shown below. It can be verified that chapter titles are the same. It seems that this four-day very urban event, with no mention of meditations separate from the talks, was not exactly a camp but in all other respects, it helps out well with filling in the gaps.

JRG 1 = MKKS 6 7/4/1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay
JRG 2 = MKKS 7 8/4/1968 am Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay
JRG 3 = MKKS 8 8/4/1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay
JRG 4 = MKKS 9 9/4/1968 am Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay
JRG 5 = MKKS 10 9/4/1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay
JRG 6 = MKKS 11 10/4/1968 am Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay
JRG 7 = MKKS 12 10/4/1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay

As a bonus, this also helps to clear up the discrepancies between OW's and o.com' blurbs about Mati. Simply, 12 = 4 + 1 + 7, where the "1" is chapter 5. Now all those different numbers make sense.

The only gap remaining in working out Mati's origins is the first four chapters. For that, there are hints and traces of infobits from here and there, suggestive but by no means conclusive. Putting them together . . .

The original blurb from o.com had it that these talks were from a camp in Junagadh. Okay. Today i also re-discovered in Shifting content in Hindi books (source document) that Mati's ch 3 is the same as ch 3 in Rom Rom Ras Peejiye (रोम रोम रस पीजिए). And guess what? Rom Rom was from a camp in Junagadh dist in Gujarat!

But that's as far as we can go with that synchronicity for now. Rom Rom has nine talks, not four, and none of its titles align with Mati's titles. Perhaps audio or text comparison will nail it down and show that only the titles have been changed, but for now, that's all,-- doofus-9 07:56, 24 December 2018 (UTC)


Jeevan Ras Ganga 1-7 D&P.jpg
Mati Kahe Kumhar Sun 1-12 D&P ver 2.jpg
Mati Kahe Kumhar Sun D&P ver 3.jpg

Above info about the JRG connection is not obsolete, but it can be augmented by not one but two new versions of D&Ps from Jagdish. We'll copy the old one from JRG over here to present all three versions together:
There! Isn't that nice?
They are largely in agreement with each other, and some of their differences can be parsed for their relative significance, and so a decent picture emerges. Analysis below:

MKKS 1 May 18 1968 pm Junagarh
MKKS 2 May 19 1968 am Junagarh
MKKS 3 May 20 1968 om Junagarh
MKKS 4 May 20 1968 pm Junagarh
MKKS 5 Dec 11 1970 pm Woodlands, Bombay
JRG 1 = MKKS 6 Apr 7 1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay
JRG 2 = MKKS 7 Apr 8 1968 am Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay (Q&A)
JRG 3 = MKKS 8 Apr 8 1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay
JRG 4 = MKKS 9 Apr 9 1968 am Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay (Q&A)
JRG 5 = MKKS 10 Apr 9 1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay
JRG 6 = MKKS 11 Apr 10 1968 am Kawasji Jahangir Hall, Bombay (Q&A)
JRG 7 = MKKS 12 Apr 10 1968 pm Cross Maidan, Bombay

Some decisions need to be made about discourse numbers, both in Junagarh -- "Junagadh" is a variant transliteration, not a problem at this moment -- and in Bombay. Regarding numbering in Junagadh, it feels more satisfying to have all four talks mentioned, and so the dates from ver 2 have been adopted, if only provisionally. The schedule in Junagadh has a big gap with either version, so we have to wonder about what else might be there. Possibly some lost discourses, of which no trace remains.

In choosing between the two options in the talks connected with JRG, we have other sources nudging us toward omitting Mati #5 as a part of JRG. These are the audiobook folks, who maintain that JRG and/or its Mati equivalent have only seven audios. So we'll go with the ver 1 numbering, as above. The consolation here is that Mati #5 seems to be able to rest firmly anyway in its spot on Osho's birthday in 1970, with or without JRG. This decision can be provisional as well.

All this leaves Mati's connection with Rom Rom as a bit of an outlier. There is only the one source for that, and with only discourse #3 mentioned, offering nothing for #1, 2 and 4. And 1967 doesn't fit very well either. So this connection can go, again provisionally, into storage.

The question of whether we can call JRG a camp remains moot, but perhaps there were ways in which participants were immersed in a camp-like meditative atmosphere for those days even with its big urban backdrop ... or whatever. Nothing much at stake with this.

The third version mentions "Prabhu Mandir", presumably a reference to Prabhu Mandir Ke Dwar Par (प्रभु मंदिर के द्वार पर), but as there is nothing substantial pointed to, we can't do anything with it. Prabhu Mandir is fairly well established in 1969 too, so nothing can really be made of this for now. More for the storage bin! -- doofus-9 01:10, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


The D&P info from the RF 1980 edition is next. It is complicated by the fact of only having seven chapters but it does supply dates in the ends of each chapter fwiw. Comments follow:

MKKS 1 -- med.camp Junagadh, 18 May 1968 pm
MKKS 2 -- med.camp Junagadh, 19 May 1968 am
MKKS 3 -- med.camp Junagadh, 19 May 1968 om
MKKS 4 -- med.camp Junagadh, 21 May 1968 pm
MKKS 5 -- Woodlands, Bombay 11 Dec 1970 am
MKKS 6 -- Kawasji Hall, Bombay 8 April 1968 am
MKKS 7 -- Anand, Gujarat 16 Feb 1969

The first thing we might try to settle is: what is the relationship between these seven chapters/talks and the twelve-chapter version we have encountered for most of this discussion? The first five (four from Junagadh and one from 11 Dec 1970 in Woodland) fit fairly well with the first five from Jagdish, with some minor date tweaking for #3 & 4.

But there is a problem or two: First we haven't yet found an actual twelve-chapter edition, and there may never be one, just the collection of 12 audios at Osho World. Second, and more important, there are indications that several of the dates given here are wrong, ch 4&5 in minor ways but ch 3 in a major way.

Matching up ch 6 with something appropriate in the twelve-talk audio series or the similar ten-talk 2016 OMI book is a coin-toss: either it is ch 7 in the 12-ch collection, sticking with the date, or the date has to be changed if it is indeed ch 6.

Finally, we come to ch 7, a completely new chapter from left field. In fact, the text seems to correspond to Ek Ek Kadam (एक एक कदम) #1 and this date and place will be applied to it. -- doofus-9 22:57, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Discourse #5 and its ramifications

And there is a curious infobit from Neeten's Osho Source Book (Bombay section) concerning the time the discourses were given. He has it that discourse #5 was given on Dec 11, 1970, on the occasion of Osho's 40th birthday. Which is great to learn, but that date would be his 39th. More likely it WAS his 40th, making it Dec 11, 1971, more likely because, according to the Camps timeline, he would have just finished a camp in Ahmedabad on Dec 7, 1970, the classic one when he inaugurated the massive Geeta-Darshan (गीता-दर्शन) series, and there is a big gap in the Dec 1971 timeline. ~ June 2014

Above analysis of the info from Neeten, figuring out that the mistake should be resolved by saying it was his 40th and in Dec 1971, was based solely on a gap in the talks timeline, which looks a bit fatuous now. The significance of the birthday discourse story was that a big change happened that night in the way that Osho was addressing his people, his salutations at the beginning and end. These changes can be verified as having happened in some camps in 1971, so the date (1970) is correct and "40th" is what's wrong. -- doofus-9 07:17, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Latest info from Shailendra confirms that this milestone talk WAS given on Osho's birthday in 1970 and was first compiled in Jeevan Rahasya (जीवन रहस्य) as #13 but later transferred to Mati, as #5. -- doofus-9 18:49, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
One more tiny thing about that is remembering that there are different conventions regarding the phrase "nth birthday". To me, "40th birthday" means when someone turns 40. The other way starts with the actual day the person is born and calls that the 1st birthday, and so on, and this is a perfectly sensible way of reckoning such things. So in that system, Osho's 40th birthday would indeed have been in 1970. So i was wrong all the way down the line on that one. 07:56, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
This talk was first published in 1980 ed. in Mati, so event for it will get 5th number of Mati series. None of known book edition of Jeevan Rahasya have 13th chapter. Late Jeevan Rahasya edition have 12 chapters. Only Jagdish and OW audio has this number. And as Shailendra made his PDFs according OW audios, so this chapter appears in Mati and in Jeevan series.--DhyanAntar 12:56, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

About "Gyan Satra" on Jagdish images: it means simply talktime. Gyan=knowledge, Satr means session.--DhyanAntar 09:03, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

media status

Osho.com has 4 MP3s, OW has 12 under this title. Also compare Talk:Jeevan Rahasya (जीवन रहस्य).

The audio needs to be checked against the book's texts: what is what? --Sugit (talk) 12:18, 7 January 2019 (UTC)