Talk:Agyat Ki Or (अज्ञात की ओर)

- This page is under construction

Current Understanding

event	audio, OshoWorld	Osho.com	Shailendra's PDF	Oshoganga	OshoWorld e-book (*1)	Book edition	Dates & Places
Vigyan, Dharm Aur Kala ~ 02	#1	Vigyan, Dharm Aur Kala 2. धर्म है बिलकुल वैयक्तिक	Vigyan, Dharm Aur Kala 2. धर्म है बिल्कुल वैयक्तिक	Vigyan, Dharm Aur Kala 2. धर्म है बिलकुल वैयक्तिक			1967?, place unknown
Agyat Ki Or ~ 01	#2	1. न भोग, न त्याग, वरन रूपांतरण	1. न भोग, न त्याग--वरन रूपांतरण	1. न भोग, न त्याग-वरन रूपांतरण			28 Jun 1967 om **, Surat (*2)
Agyat Ki Or ~ 02	#3	2. धर्म की सही शिक्षा	2. धर्म की सही शिक्षा	2. धर्म की सहीं शिक्षा			29 Jun 1967 om **, Surat (*2)
Agyat Ki Or ~ 03	#4	3. चित्त को बदलने की कीमिया	3. चित्त को बदलने की कीमिया	3. चित को बदलने की कीमिया	4. नीति का पाखंड		29 Jun 1967 pm, Lions Club, Surat
Agyat Ki Or ~ 04	#5	4. विज्ञान और धर्म में कोई विरोध नहीं	4. विज्ञान और धर्म में कोई विरोध नहीं	4. विज्ञान और धर्म में कोई विरोध नहीं			30 Jun 1967 om **, Surat (*2)
Agyat Ki Or ~ 05	#7	5. मन का पात्र कभी भरता नहीं	5. मन का पात्र कभी भरता नहीं	5. मन का पात्र कभी भरता नहीं	7. बोध क्रांति		30 Jun 1967 pm, Rotary Club, Surat (*3)
Amrit Varsha ~ 06	#6	Amrit Varsha 6. अपने अज्ञान का अस्वीकार (*4) missing first 6 words	Amrit Varsha 6. अपने अज्ञान का स्वीकार missing first 6 words	Amrit Varsha 6. अपने अज्ञान का स्वीकार missing first 6 words			1965, Lions Club International, Poona
Shiksha Mein Kranti ~ 02		Shiksha Mein Kranti 2. "Audio Not Available" text available in osho.com library 2. धर्म और विज्ञान	Shiksha Mein Kranti 2. धर्म और विज्ञान	Shiksha Mein Kranti 2. धर्म ओर विज्ञान		Agyat Ki Or, 1967 and 1969 ed., 1. धर्म और विज्ञान Shiksha Mein Kranti (शिक्षा में क्रांति), 1980 and 2005 ed., ch.2	< Nov 1967 (*5)
Shiksha Mein Kranti ~ 03		Shiksha Mein Kranti 3. "Audio Not Available" text available in osho.com library 3. शिक्षा और धर्म	Shiksha Mein Kranti 3. शिक्षा और धर्म	Shiksha Mein Kranti 3. शिक्षा ओर धर्म		Agyat Ki Or, 1967 and 1969 ed., 2. धर्म और शिक्षा Shiksha Mein Kranti (शिक्षा में क्रांति), 1980 and 2005 ed., ch.3	< Nov 1967 (*6)

(*1) The e-book has only two chapters numbered 4 and 7.

(*2) Dates from Jagdish differs for these three events. Our analysis showed that all 5 events are related and are the one series as well as Osho.com, Shailendra and Oshoganga say. These events fits well with Antar Ki Khoj (अंतर की खोज) series given in those dates too:

28.06.1967 am - Antar Ki Khoj ~ 03

28.06.1967 om - Agyat Ki Or ~ 01

28.06.1967 pm - Antar Ki Khoj ~ 04

29.06.1967 am - Antar Ki Khoj ~ 05

29.06.1967 om - Agyat Ki Or ~ 02

29.06.1967 pm - Agyat Ki Or ~ 03

30.06.1967 am - Antar Ki Khoj ~ 06

30.06.1967 om - Agyat Ki Or ~ 04

30.06.1967 pm - Agyat Ki Or ~ 05

(*3) Source of exact time of day is Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction.

(*4) Although Osho.com site gives the title as अपने अज्ञान का अस्वीकार, Apne Agyan Ka Asweekar, the title for their 2010 version of the audio file has it as Apne Agyan Ka Sweekar, - the same as in Shailendra's e-book. (Sweekar = "accept".) Whether "Asweekar" is a mistake or an intended correction remains to be seen. "Asweekar" is basically the negation / opposite of "Sweekar".

(*5) This event is very close to text of Vigyan, Dharm Aur Kala ~ 02, but it differ much. Either it was edited hard, combined and mixed up with other talks ot it is real event.

(*6) This event is very close to text of Agyat Ki Or ~ 02, but it differ much. Either it was edited hard, combined and mixed up with other talks ot it is real event, then it can be given during 5 talks of Agyat Ki Or.

Deliberations

Neeten's Osho Source Book says Osho's first recorded discourse and preserved tape seems to be Agyat, recorded in Ahmedabad on Jul 10, 1963, running some 57 minutes. Neeten has also reproduced the translator's preface to Towards the Unknown.

1st event of this series has 57min, however, the date does not match. It can not be part of the Agyat Ki Or series, at least not of the five talks-version.--DhyanAntar 05:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Hindi pdfs of two chapters (OshoWorld e-book) of this book (the same ones translated as Towards the Unknown?) floating around the net say that discourses 4 and 7 were given in Surat in the evenings of June 29 & 30, 1967. If the book presents the discourses in chronological order, then 5 and 6 were given in Surat as well, leaving only 2 and 3 to be accounted for. -- 27 May 2014

And fwiw, more info from a new source, Hathi Trust, but how it fits with existing info is far from clear. They purport to describe the 1969 JJK edition but have it at 93 pages with the subtitle "Acharya Sri Rajneesh Ke Do Pravachan," ie two discourses of Acharya Sri Rajneesh. Since the audio sites are offering seven discourses averaging more than an hour and the e-book excerpts refer to discourse #4 and 7, it is hard to imagine this book being any more than a partial rendering, if that. More clues are needed to assimilate this.

And more clues have been found, in previously overlooked portions of Neeten's work, but not entirely clarificatory:

First, a bare-bones entry for a publication in 1967, with no bibliographical details, but okay, first pub date.

Second, an entry for the 1969 edition, with some details, Sep 1969, 94 pages. This aligns not too badly with the Hathi Trust data, but the mystery of the seven discourses vs the two in the subtitle continues.

Third, an entry for the first edition of Towards the Unknown, with lots of details, including that it was published one month before the 1969 Hindi edition. But, alas, it also says the two talks were from Aug 15, 1969, not only an unlikely instant translation and publication but out of line with previous discourse dates. Not really very credible, when you get down to it. Sigh! -- updated Sarlo (talk) 00:12, 30 August 2014 (PDT)

Hindi book first published in Nov 1967, so these dates (from 15 Aug 1969) are incorrect.--DhyanAntar 05:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

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The e-book at OshoWorld has 2 chapters, with dates 29 and 30 xxx 1967. (The PDF cannot be copy-pasted because of the font.) --Sugit (talk) 12:06, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

They are June 29 & 30, 1967, Surat as Sarlo stated a little above.--DhyanAntar 05:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Dates, Places and Numbers

The preface of the 1969 translation Towards the Unknown says:

"This book in your hand (...) is the translation of original Hindi 'Agyat-ki-Aur' being the scholarly discourses by Acharya Rajneeshji (...)"

That suggest that it is a complete translation! Maybe Agyat Ki Or at first had only 2 chapters, and then in later editions acquired more material? Or the 7 chapters of Agyat Ki Or were condensed to 2 in Towards the Unknown? Just thinking out loud. --Sugit (talk) 13:52, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

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Sw Jagdish Bharti has provided info on 5 talks:

talk	date and location
Agyat Ki Or #1	18 Jan 1967 Matunga Mumbi [sic]
Agyat Ki Or #2	3 Mar 1967 Vallabh Vidhyabhavan Anand
Agyat Ki Or #3	29 Jun 1967 Lions Club Surat
Agyat Ki Or #4	3 Sep 1967 Pune
Agyat Ki Or #5	30 Jul 1967 Rotary Club Surat

To compare with 'the current wiki's data':

Agyat Ki Or ~ 01 10 Jul 1963 Ahmedabad

Agyat Ki Or ~ 04 29 Jun 1967 pm Surat

Agyat Ki Or ~ 07 30 Jun 1967 pm Surat

Agyat Ki Or ~ ? 15 Aug 1969 pm

4th event looks as talk #3. I suggest that 7th event has incorrect month, then this event seems talk #5.--DhyanAntar 06:40, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

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First edition of Agyat Ki Or has 2 talks only. Next edition has 7 talks.

Audios from those days have 7 talks. OshoWorld has these 7 audios. Later on 2 out of 7 were moved to more appropriate titles:

• Audio #1 from OW is now in Vigyan, Dharm Aur Kala (विज्ञान, धर्म और कला) #2.
• Audio #6 from Osho World got printed in two books Amrit Varsha (अमृत वर्षा) #6 and Jeevan Ki Kala (जीवन की कला) #3

Source for this info is Shailendra. He also stated that PDF in OW has two chapters only, which are Agyat Ki Or #4 of OW (#3 in present book) and Agyat Ki Or #7 of OW (#5 in present book).--DhyanAntar 04:58, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

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The combination of all this recent info looks good. Re the "incorrect month" for #7-which-became-#5, it could be a toss-up except for the problem of finding an intermediary one or two discourses between it and #4-which-became-#3. That they are both in the same city, Surat, makes succeeding months looks better than the same month.

And with this, the "current wiki's" two dates in 1963 and 1969 have become outliers. Perhaps they are the two that got moved to other books, or either or both could be just wrong, especially the 1969 date, since its source applies it to two talks. -- doofus-9 18:50, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

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All 7 events contain incorrect first published year 1969. Buw we don't know which and how many chapters first edition 1967 contains.--DhyanAntar 11:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

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Some re-thinking inspired by input from Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction#B Sheets (B-1 to B-13V), concerning the Surat talks of Agyat: The Reports B sheets have an ambiguous number of events in Surat at the end of June, but do not specify titles. So it's 3-6 talks 28-30 Jun divvied up among the titles mingling there.

Jagdish has supplied info on two titles, Agyat and Antar Ki Khoj (अंतर की खोज). In his version, there are five events in these three days, four for AKK and one for Agyat, the Lions Club event on 29th evg. He makes Agyat #7 (new #5) as being on 30 Jul in Surat at the Rotary Club.

And the Agyat e-book fragment has old #4 and 7 (new 3 and 5) on Jun 29 pm and Jun 30 pm, without naming specific venues. One of the problems of the old view of all this was thinking that #5 and 6 had to come in between 4 and 7, and must have been in Surat on Jun 30 am and om or something like that, but chapters of these older books compiled from here and there are not always in chronological order, no need to be so orderly.

So now we have the timeline compiled from the Manuscripts ~ Reports. What does it tell us that's new that might sort some of this out?

1. There's every reason to believe that the three non-specific talks Jun 28-30 are in addition to the three specific talks in the evenings of those three days, that it is referencing six talks, though not entirely unambiguously. That Jagdish has five already in this time frame makes a sixth not a significant stretch.

2. It specifies talks on 29th pm at Lions Club and 30th pm at Rotary Club.

3. It has no event on Jul 30, at a Rotary Club or anywhere. On Jul 28, he is in Jabalpur, on Aug 2 in Gwalior, with nothing in between.

Regarding this last, absence of an event is of course not proof of anything, but it is suggestive, as these sheets give the appearance of being somewhat thorough.

On the basis of all these fingers pointing at the Timeline, i would contend that the most likely scenario, that requires the least amount of stretching, bending, spinning and denial, is that Agyat old #4 and 7 are both as the e-book has it:

There is room for six talks in those three days in Surat.

Two sources point to events at the Rotary Club on the 30th of something. For Osho to come back to Surat for a single talk on Jul 30 a month after he was just there is a stretch.

A Jul 30 event is not confirmed by anyone, while multiple sources point to Jun 30.

If there's a typo mixing up Jul and Jun, it is more likely in English than in Devanagari; on that basis, Jagdish is more likely wrong than either the e-book and the manuscript, never mind both.

The previous objection to #4 and 7 being 24 hours apart, that #5 and 6 would have to squeeze in between, is at best a decent guess, far from a certainty.

These points taken all together make a fairly compelling case for #7 at the Rotary Club in Surat on Jun 30, so i will enter it in the Timeline. -- doofus-9 19:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

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media status

OW has 7 mp3s, osho.com has 5. The 5 audios of osho.com, looking at duration, could correspond to OW's 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7.

It needs to be researched what audio is what text: first known to us print editions has 2 chapters. Oshoganga and Shailendra's PDF both have 5 chapters. Also compare with the 2 chapters of Towards the Unknown (it expects that it is translation of first edition with two chapters too). --Sugit (talk) 12:06, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

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First printed edition with two chapters most likely translated into Towards the Unknown. It needs to check that. And See Talk:Towards the Unknown: there are some match with 5 ch. version, which can be helpful in order to find the comparison 2-ch. and 5-ch.--DhyanAntar 04:20, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

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Two chapters from first edition later published as ch.2-3 of Shiksha Mein Kranti (शिक्षा में क्रांति). We do not know what events (of 7) of Agyat Ki Or corresponding to printed two chapters. So events Shiksha Mein Kranti ~ 02 and Shiksha Mein Kranti ~ 03 are temporary, they should remove the clarity will appear. It seems date of Shiksha Mein Kranti ~ 03 is date of Agyat Ki Or #2 (table of dates from Jagdish above).--DhyanAntar 05:20, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

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Checked: Towards the Unknown is indeed translation of two chapters of Agyat (1967ed.), which appeared in Shiksha Mein Kranti (ch.2-3).

It needs to check how this series sort with Antar Ki Khoj - events on the same dates.--DhyanAntar 08:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

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Observations of Dilip:

"The two chapter version of AKO is first published in 1967 as per Wiki book page. Text of the chapter #01 and #02 matches perfectly (VERBATIM) with SMK #02 and #03 respectively. The text in Shailendra's docx, OG and OC for them do not match with transcription of any of the 7 audios of OW AKO. However audios SMK #02 and #03 are not available with OW and OC both.

"These two chapters are not related with other 5 events (Shailendra's 5 ch. version). They are not part of 'Agyat Ki Or' series. Only some similarity is found in regards to the stories told with their explanations in AKO audio #01 and #03 - perhaps that's why the book published with only 2 chapters in 1967 as 1st edition might have been titled as AKO.

"It's not possible confirm that audio OW AKO #01 (Vigyan, Dharm Aur Kala ch.2 in Shailendra's PDF) is first event of Agyat Ki Or series. But it's surely a duplicated upload in Osho World site in line with their upload of VDAK audio #02. And the transcription of the same perfectly matches verbatim with the text of Shailendra's PDF, OG and OC as 'VDAK: 2. धर्म है बिलकुल वैयक्तिक'. So relating it with next event (OW audio AKO #2) is not necessary.

"And finally audio OW AKO #6 is not part of Agyat Ki Or series because we can not find linking discourse in the series to concluding statement in which Osho observes: "How he (the blacksmith) reached home, that I will talk to you in the night." But it's surely included as "Amrit Varsha 6. अपने अज्ञान का स्वीकार" in Shalendra's PDF, OG and OC.

{This story of the blacksmith is also found in two more discourses:

अजहूं चेत गंवार (संत पलटू दास) -प्रवचन-03 बड़ी से बड़ी खता—खुदी—(प्रवचन—तीसरा)

तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय-(प्रवचन-05) पांचवांप्रवचन--जीवन का सम्मान (In this discourse Osho adds to the story: a saint (fakir) explains and motivates the blacksmith that creator is bigger than his creation and he can break open the shackles.)

These references are not relevant with AKO.}"

21.05.2020