Talk:Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath (अस्वीकृति में उठा हाथ)
Please note that there is another source for the dates and locations which may be equally credible but does not align well detail-wise with the table below. These details are currently what is in the Timeline and may be changed if new info comes along supporting the other source. All agree on the broad picture of six or seven talks in Mumbai in early Dec 1968 and a completely unknown 8th discourse.
Also up in the air is the alignment between chapter titles and times, but that may be just a result of later shufflings. For "Event" purposes, it may be sufficient to use the order of the first edition. See the deliberations below which explore all this. -- doofus-9 21:46, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
|2 Dec 1968 am||Bombay||Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 01|
|2 Dec 1968 pm||Bombay||Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 02|
|3 Dec 1968 am||Bombay||Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 03|
|3 Dec 1968 pm||Bombay||Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 04|
|4 Dec 1968 am||Bombay||Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 05|
|4 Dec 1968 pm||Bombay||Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 06|
Main event here is the TOC found in the e-book for Dekh Kabira Roya. (See Dekh's discussion page for the whole picture of how it fits in.) The Aswikriti portion is reproduced below, complete with page numbers of what was likely a hard copy publication of all three of Dekh's component volumes. To the right, for comparison, is the TOC derived from osho.com's Aswikriti audiobook, which formerly graced this page when it was the only known source. Not only is it missing chapters 6 and 8 but it has a different order for the others, which were likely in chronological order in the e-book. (Again see Dekh's discussion page for the relevant dating info.)
| e-book titles and page #s
|| Shailendra's e-book
|| Osho.com audio titles:
- Since the above was written , osho.com has updated its audiobook presentation to "include" a seventh title, अँधेरे कूपों मैं हलचल, but they then declare it is not available, so whatever! -- doofus-9 08:21, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- and Shailendra's e-book added in Aug 2018 by Dhyanantar.
"Bharat, Gandhi Aur Main"
Aside from this, there is a hint in Neeten's Bibliography page that Aswikriti is subtitled "Bharat, Gandhi Aur Main" (India, Gandhi and Myself), and possibly published later under just that title. There are no chapter titles explicitly about Gandhi but the first chap above, titled roughly "Birth of a Dead Great Man," could well be setting the tone for just such a book. And chap 2/3's title, "One More Disagreement," resonates well with that of the book that comes next in the Dekh trilogy, "Gandhism, One More Analysis." It was a potent subject in those days (late 60s). More about that at Talk:Kaam-Yog, Dharm Aur Gandhi (काम-योग, धर्म और गांधी). -- updated doofus-9 (talk) 17:45, 20 December 2014 (PST)
An edition of Bharat, Gandhi Aur Main (भारत, गांधी और मैं) has been found, though mysteriously with no pub info, but okay. As a new title, this is more than a "new edition" of Aswikriti, but hardly more. It is the same length and has the same eight chapter titles. As we have come to learn, this is not precisely Aswikriti's subtitle.
It is said above to have been possibly published later under this title, and later than the 1969 edition does appear to be reasonable, but as the author's name is given as Acharya Rajneesh, it can only have been 1971 at the latest, unless it was a "rogue" publisher. So it would have preceded Aswikriti's 1972 reprint. Why it came out like this -- only the one time and using a modified subtitle as title -- will likely have to remain a mystery. -- doofus-9 18:29, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Updates from Dec 2018 onward:
Based on newly received images from the first edition, not a lot needs to be corrected!!! But we can confirm the chapter titles and their order in the e-book (which was from Osho World if anyone wants to know). The only small diff was in ch 7, "लकीरों से हट कर", whereby हट कर is one word in the Contents image. Neither appears to be an error, as both are widely in use, sometimes even in the same doc.
We might also note that the dates of the first six talks being somewhat solid and the last two not available in audio confirms that they are from another time and place, likely in mid-1969, given publishing lead times in those days.
And the subtitle shows up loud and clear here, as भारत, गांधी और मेरी चिन्तां (Bharat, Gandhi Aur Meri Chintan, India, Gandhi and My Concern). G**gle Translate offers only the non-idiomatic "Anxiety" for the last word, which is not so likely. Also on that page (the title page, opp pub info) at the bottom, we have the message that the discourses (unqualified) were given at Cross Maidan, in Bombay. Perhaps they mean only the first six, or perhaps all eight.
- I think subtitle has no dot in the last word - चिन्ता. The dot means there the separator between Title and subtitle. List of printed books in Two Hundred Two, p.203 indicates on another version of last word - चिता. The rest words in subtitle are the same.--DhyanAntar 09:34, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
- Subtitle has been updated per Antar's worthy suggestion. FWIW, चिन्तां (Chintan), ie with the nasalizing dot, is given the meaning "Worries" in G**gle Translate, while चिन्ता (Chinta) generates "Anxiety". For both, they suggest ("Do you mean?") चिंता (also transliterates as Chinta, but meaning "Concern"), which may be even better. Perhaps the existing चिन्ता (Chinta) is a DN typo. -- doofus-9 18:29, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
The cover artist is not named, though his (presumed) style is evident in other covers: Nav-Sannyas Kya's 1972 edition for one, perhaps there are others, and in English Pubs as well. -- doofus-9 19:40, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
But based on another newly received image regarding the Dates and Places for Aswikriti's talks, a lot may need to be corrected after all!!! Turns out the dates of the first six talks may not be so solid. Not that this image is necessarily the ultimate authority, but it may have more heft than the contradictory entries in the Appendix of Neeten's still raw, unsifted Osho Source Book, which were used to bolster the very partial other sources, particularly the e-book for Dekh Kabira Roya mentioned above.
The image (right) was supplied by Jagdish, whose other D&P offerings have been fairly reliable, though perhaps not 100%. So, FWIW . . .
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #1 PM 2.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan, Bombay
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #2 AM 3.12.1968 . . . Opera House
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #3 PM 3.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #4 AM 4.12.1968 . . . Opera House
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #5 PM 4.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #6 AM 5.12.1968 . . . Opera House
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #7 PM 5.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan
What's new with this info is manifold:
a) There are seven dates.
b) They start on the evening of the 2nd
c) Not all talks are at Cross Maidan, just all the evenings
What remains the same:
a) All known talks are in early Dec and fairly bunched together, and all in Mumbai
b) Talk #8, which is left out of the e-book, is also missing here.
Reviewing the other Date and Place sources closely, we say, "Hmmmmm". There is a wanting to find some meaningful and near-complete picture, which perhaps enhanced the apparent solidity of the earlier conclusions. The two sources admittedly fit together fairly well: Neeten says there were four discourses on the 2nd and 3rd, while the e-book says the 4th, 5th and 6th were on the occasions occupied by the 3rd, 4th and 5th above. The wanting also celebrated this new picture, which is coherent and more complete but does not fit well with the previous sources.
Interestingly, Neeten has two more talks following these in Mumbai, at the Opera House, from Jeevan aur Mrityu, on the 5th and 6th. This title does not exist yet in the wiki and may still have a way to relate to Aswikriti, though "Life and Death" doesn't seem a likely fit with Aswikriti's more "political" titles.
No illumination anywhere, so on balance maybe better to stick with the previous solution for now, if for no other reason than that it's less work. Stay tuned! -- doofus-9 21:46, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
Hindi series of talks with dates (source document): "Dekh Kabira Roya, 6 talks, 2-5.12.68". This important new source for dates of Hindi talks occupies a "middle position" between the old (and at this point still current) model of six talks, two per day from Dec 2-4 and Jagdish's model, of seven talks spreading into Dec 5. It is not sufficiently specific about precisely when its six talks are and which chapters they are to allow us to conclude anything but it does point the way to a possible synthesis. More input is needed; perhaps a text and/or audio analysis will make things clear(er).
Doc X (source document): "DEKH KABIRA ROYA, 30 talks, Dec 2-3 1968, Bombay".
Osho's Itinerary gives 1-2 Dec talks in Rajkot. --DhyanAntar 12:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC) / doofus-9 19:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)