Talk:Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath (अस्वीकृति में उठा हाथ)
|1972 book ed. (*1)||Shailendra's PDF||Oshoganga||Other book editions||Dates & Places (*2)|
|Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 01||Dekh Kabira Roya #1||1. एक मृत महापुरुष का जन्म
|1. एक मृत महापुरुष का जन्म
|1. एक मृत महापुरुष का जन्म||1. एक मृत महापुरुष का जन्म||2 Dec 1968 pm, Bombay|
|Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 02||Dekh Kabira Roya #2||2. संचेतना के ठोस आयाम||4. संचेतना के ठोस आयाम
|2. संचेतना के ठोस आयाम||2. संचेतना के ठोस आयाम||3 Dec 1968 am, Bombay|
|Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 03||Dekh Kabira Roya #3||3. एक और असहमति||2. एक और असहमति
missing last two paragraphs
|3. एक और असहमति||3. एक और असहमति||3 Dec 1968 pm, Cross Maidan, Bombay (*5)|
|Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 04||Dekh Kabira Roya #4||4. लकीरों से हट कर||7. लकीरों से हटकर
|4. लकीरों से हट कर||4. लकीरों से हट कर||4 Dec 1968 am, Opera House, Bombay|
|Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 05||Dekh Kabira Roya #5||5. अतीत के मरघट से मुक्ति||3. अतीत के मरघट से मुक्ति
missing last paragraph
|5. अतीत के मरघट से मुक्ति||5. अतीत के मरघट से मुक्ति||4 Dec 1968 pm, Bombay|
|Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 06||Dekh Kabira Roya #6||6. तोड़ने का एक और उपक्रम||5. तोड़ने का एक और उपक्रम
missing last paragraph
|6. तोड़ने का एक और उपक्रम||6. तोड़ने का एक और उपक्रम||5 Dec 1968 am, Cross Maidan, Bombay (*5)|
|Ek Ek Kadam ~ 04||Ek Ek Kadam #4||Ek Ek Kadam 4. अहिंसा का सार है--प्रेम||6. उगती हुई जमीन (*3)
||7. उगती हुई जमीन (*3)
|Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 08||7. अँधेरे कूपों मैं हलचल
"Audio Not Available"
|8. अंधेरे कूपों में हलचल||8. अंधेरे कूपों में हलचल||8. अंधेरे कूपों में हलचल||1968 or 1969 ?, Bombay ? (*4)|
(*1) This edition is edited. Other order of chapter can be explained by putting q/a talks after discourses.
(*2) It seems dates in this later edition (1979) was involved, while 1972 and 1974 editions has no dates, and are incorrect. Because:
- below view of text shown unity of first 6 events and two last additional events. Other good argument about two additional talks is including 7th event in Ek Ek Kadam series in audio series and ebook;
- order of chapters in this edition as well as in other two editions is not chronological, but dates given in the edition: 2 talks per day. According to view of extracts (at bottom of the page) first event was evening and second - on next morning.
Hindi series of talks with dates (source document) gives info that there is 6 talks from 2 to 5 Dec 1968. It looks truthfully: talk in Rajkot on 1 Dec, returning to Bombay and evening talk on 2 Dec (see below analisys of text and see also Timeline), 3-4 Dec - two talks/day, last talk on 5 Dec on morning. As first discourse was evening then in the morning q/a session, therefore this order (evening discourse + q/a on next day) was respected in first 6 events, we will keep this time model for talks untill other reliable source will appear.
Some other sources says 4 talks on 2-3 Dec, which not pass well with first talk in evening (on first day of 3-day session). Or it is possible with other addional talk on 3 Dec, i.e. three talks on that date? Unclear.
Although Osho's Appointment Diary 1967-1970 (translated source document) is good source, in this time it is very doubtful. It says: 1 Dec talk in Rajkot, 2 Dec talk in Amreli (110 km from Rajkot), 3 Dec 20:00 talk in Bombay, then on 3 Dec Osho redarts from Bombay to Jabalpur and arrives next day. Only one talk in Bombay according to the source. But Kaha Kahun Us Des Ki ~ 06 was given in Bombay on 4 Dec in afternoon, which is proved by a book edition and tape label (from audio cassette). So Osho has been in Bombay on 4 Dec and it cotradicts to the source.
(*3) These texts are edited.
(*4) This date can be 5 Dec 1968, as Jagdish says. But Osho Timeline 1968 is overloaded with event on the date and it seems they are not related with current ch.8.
(*5) The venue is confirmed by Gujarati books, see Talk:Bharat Aur Meri Chinta (ભારત ઔર મેરી ચિંતા) and Talk:Atitni Alochana (Creative Criticism) Ane Bhavinu Chintan (અતીતની આલોચના (Creative Criticism) અને ભાવીનું ચિંતન).
Main event here is the TOC found in the e-book for Dekh Kabira Roya. (See Dekh's discussion page for the whole picture of how it fits in.) The Aswikriti portion is reproduced below, complete with page numbers of what was likely a hard copy publication of all three of Dekh's component volumes. To the right, for comparison, is the TOC derived from osho.com's Aswikriti audiobook, which formerly graced this page when it was the only known source. Not only is it missing chapters 6 and 8 but it has a different order for the others, which were likely in chronological order in the e-book. (Again see Dekh's discussion page for the relevant dating info.)
- Dates of OW e-book is taken from 1979ed. So, errors are the same - see footnote (*2) for above table.--DhyanAntar 06:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
| e-book titles and page #s
|| Shailendra's e-book
|| Osho.com audio titles:
- Since the above was written , osho.com has updated its audiobook presentation to "include" a seventh title, अँधेरे कूपों मैं हलचल, but they then declare it is not available, so whatever! -- doofus-9 08:21, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- and Shailendra's e-book added in Aug 2018 by Dhyanantar.
"Bharat, Gandhi Aur Main"
Aside from this, there is a hint in Neeten's Bibliography page that Aswikriti is subtitled "Bharat, Gandhi Aur Main" (India, Gandhi and Myself), and possibly published later under just that title. There are no chapter titles explicitly about Gandhi but the first chap above, titled roughly "Birth of a Dead Great Man," could well be setting the tone for just such a book. And chap 2/3's title, "One More Disagreement," resonates well with that of the book that comes next in the Dekh trilogy, "Gandhism, One More Analysis." It was a potent subject in those days (late 60s). More about that at Talk:Kaam-Yog, Dharm Aur Gandhi (काम-योग, धर्म और गांधी). -- updated doofus-9 (talk) 17:45, 20 December 2014 (PST)
An edition of Bharat, Gandhi Aur Main (भारत, गांधी और मैं) has been found, though mysteriously with no pub info, but okay. As a new title, this is more than a "new edition" of Aswikriti, but hardly more. It is the same length and has the same eight chapter titles. As we have come to learn, this is not precisely Aswikriti's subtitle.
It is said above to have been possibly published later under this title, and later than the 1969 edition does appear to be reasonable, but as the author's name is given as Acharya Rajneesh, it can only have been 1971 at the latest, unless it was a "rogue" publisher. So it would have preceded Aswikriti's 1972 reprint. Why it came out like this -- only the one time and using a modified subtitle as title -- will likely have to remain a mystery. -- doofus-9 18:29, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Updates from Dec 2018 onward:
Based on newly received images from the first edition, not a lot needs to be corrected!!! But we can confirm the chapter titles and their order in the e-book (which was from Osho World if anyone wants to know). The only small diff was in ch 7, "लकीरों से हट कर", whereby हट कर is one word in the Contents image. Neither appears to be an error, as both are widely in use, sometimes even in the same doc.
We might also note that the dates of the first six talks being somewhat solid and the last two not available in audio confirms that they are from another time and place, likely in mid-1969, given publishing lead times in those days.
And the subtitle shows up loud and clear here, as भारत, गांधी और मेरी चिन्तां (Bharat, Gandhi Aur Meri Chintan, India, Gandhi and My Concern). G**gle Translate offers only the non-idiomatic "Anxiety" for the last word, which is not so likely. Also on that page (the title page, opp pub info) at the bottom, we have the message that the discourses (unqualified) were given at Cross Maidan, in Bombay. Perhaps they mean only the first six, or perhaps all eight.
- I think subtitle has no dot in the last word - चिन्ता. The dot means there the separator between Title and subtitle. List of printed books in Two Hundred Two, p.203 indicates on another version of last word - चिता. The rest words in subtitle are the same.--DhyanAntar 09:34, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
- Subtitle has been updated per Antar's worthy suggestion. FWIW, चिन्तां (Chintan), ie with the nasalizing dot, is given the meaning "Worries" in G**gle Translate, while चिन्ता (Chinta) generates "Anxiety". For both, they suggest ("Do you mean?") चिंता (also transliterates as Chinta, but meaning "Concern"), which may be even better. Perhaps the existing चिन्ता (Chinta) is a DN typo. -- doofus-9 18:29, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
The cover artist is not named, though his (presumed) style is evident in other covers: Nav-Sannyas Kya's 1972 edition for one, perhaps there are others, and in English Pubs as well. -- doofus-9 19:40, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
But based on another newly received image regarding the Dates and Places for Aswikriti's talks, a lot may need to be corrected after all!!! Turns out the dates of the first six talks may not be so solid. Not that this image is necessarily the ultimate authority, but it may have more heft than the contradictory entries in the Appendix of Neeten's still raw, unsifted Osho Source Book, which were used to bolster the very partial other sources, particularly the e-book for Dekh Kabira Roya mentioned above.
The image (right) was supplied by Jagdish, whose other D&P offerings have been fairly reliable, though perhaps not 100%. So, FWIW . . .
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #1 PM 2.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan, Bombay
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #2 AM 3.12.1968 . . . Opera House
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #3 PM 3.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #4 AM 4.12.1968 . . . Opera House
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #5 PM 4.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #6 AM 5.12.1968 . . . Opera House
- Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath #7 PM 5.12.1968 . . . Cross Maidan
What's new with this info is manifold:
a) There are seven dates.
b) They start on the evening of the 2nd
c) Not all talks are at Cross Maidan, just all the evenings
What remains the same:
a) All known talks are in early Dec and fairly bunched together, and all in Mumbai
b) Talk #8, which is left out of the e-book, is also missing here.
- Jagdish lists 7 talks. It is unclear for me he means osho.com 7 ch.model or 7 ch. of e-book of OW - first 7 chapters of Dekh Kabira Roya -, the last seems digitized edition of 1979ed. with omitted date for few chapters and ch.8 (of 1979ed.) completely.--DhyanAntar 06:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Reviewing the other Date and Place sources closely, we say, "Hmmmmm". There is a wanting to find some meaningful and near-complete picture, which perhaps enhanced the apparent solidity of the earlier conclusions. The two sources admittedly fit together fairly well: Neeten says there were four discourses on the 2nd and 3rd, while the e-book says the 4th, 5th and 6th were on the occasions occupied by the 3rd, 4th and 5th above. The wanting also celebrated this new picture, which is coherent and more complete but does not fit well with the previous sources.
Interestingly, Neeten has two more talks following these in Mumbai, at the Opera House, from Jeevan aur Mrityu, on the 5th and 6th. This title does not exist yet in the wiki and may still have a way to relate to Aswikriti, though "Life and Death" doesn't seem a likely fit with Aswikriti's more "political" titles.
No illumination anywhere, so on balance maybe better to stick with the previous solution for now, if for no other reason than that it's less work. Stay tuned! -- doofus-9 21:46, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
Hindi series of talks with dates (source document): "Dekh Kabira Roya, 6 talks, 2-5.12.68". This important new source for dates of Hindi talks occupies a "middle position" between the old (and at this point still current) model of six talks, two per day from Dec 2-4 and Jagdish's model, of seven talks spreading into Dec 5. It is not sufficiently specific about precisely when its six talks are and which chapters they are to allow us to conclude anything but it does point the way to a possible synthesis. More input is needed; perhaps a text and/or audio analysis will make things clear(er).
Doc X (source document): "DEKH KABIRA ROYA, 30 talks, Dec 2-3 1968, Bombay".
Osho's Itinerary gives 1-2 Dec talks in Rajkot. --DhyanAntar 12:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC) / doofus-9 19:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Hindi series of talks with dates 2 (source document): "Dekh Kabira Roya, 4 talks, 2-3 Dec 1968". Other source, Rabia Osho books (source document), confirmes this info and adds the place Bombay.--DhyanAntar 06:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Title Dekh Kabira Roya used in above sources can explained that first 8 chapters published in 1979 in the book with this title Dekh Kabira Roya (देख कबीरा रोया).--DhyanAntar 05:22, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
Extracts from text (source: Shailendra's PDF):
Ch.1: first talk of 3-day session, in evening. "I went to Rajkot, returned from there today. Friends were very nervous there. But the result was that where ten thousand people heard me, twenty thousand people heard me there. They understood and wondered that things could be given this color and also this form. What I talked about in these three days, I have to do the whole thing in that regard." "I had gone to meet a fakir, a sannyasin here in Bombay some five-seven years ago." "What I say is that it should not become a symbol of India's development, it should not be a symbol of our life's view, outlook. Gandhi has made him a symbol. We are beginning to feel that no, no need for big technology, no need for big technology, no need for big machines, no need for centralization, no need for centralization, industrialization, no need for industrialization. We began to feel that every man should make his own soap, make his own cloth, work in his agriculture, become self-sufficient – that is all that is needed."
In the end: "This was the starting point today, I would like to talk to you on many aspects of Gandhi in the coming three days. I will answer your questions in the morning."
Ch.2: q/a, in morning. It starts by "Some friends have said that Gandhiji was not against the device. And I told yesterday evening that Gandhiji was opposed to instruments, centralization, and developed technology." (Reference to ch.1)
Ch.3: in the end: "And only if this system changes, Gandhi's soul can be happy. But do you know where the Gandhians have placed Gandhi? In the police station, the head constable has a photograph of Gandhi behind it. The head constable is sitting in the police station, abusing mother and sister and behind is the picture of the father of the nation. In the court where all kinds of dishonesty are going on, bribery is going on, there is a picture of Gandhi. Have you considered Gandhi as a fifth George? Are you doing well with Gandhi? Where have you placed Gandhi? But you don't mean anything to Gandhi. You mean yourself. You are trying to hide yourself by erecting a picture of Gandhi. But for how long will the people of this country be deceived? You will not be able to hide. The danger is that Gandhi's honor should not be lost. You will not be able to hide, but the honor of Gandhi may not be lost. It is very important to save Gandhi from Gandhians, otherwise Godse could not kill him, Gandhians can kill him. These little things, I will talk to you tomorrow, the questions that will be in this regard." (Reference to ?)
Ch.4: q/a. "Just now I heard that a Maharaja was touched by a woman here in Bombay, so he fasted for three days."
Ch.6: q/a, last talk of 3-day session. Ends by "Listened to my words in these three days with so much love and so much peace..."
It makes sense that first 6 talks are in chronological order in Shailendra's PDF (discourse->q/a->discourse->q/a->discourse->q/a) and there are clues which tell: t first talk was in evening, then the second in morning. Two other talks (ch.7 and 8) are of just q/a type, so they are additional talks and it is unclear either they are part of current series (were given indeed during 3-day series) or from other series because the 6th indicates the end of 3-days session.--updated--DhyanAntar 06:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
As date of last talk in Jagdish data seems incorrect and above extracts show some relations between chapters (talks could or could not in the same exact place), so skipped for events exact places mentioned by Jagdish.--DhyanAntar 09:41, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- See my notes at Talk:Atitni Alochana (Creative Criticism) Ane Bhavinu Chintan (અતીતની આલોચના (Creative Criticism) અને ભાવીનું ચિંતન).-Nizil (talk)
- See Talk:Bharat Aur Meri Chinta (ભારત ઔર મેરી ચિંતા)#Solved-1 about place for Aswikriti Mein Utha Haath ~ 03. -Nizil (talk) 07:32, 11 January 2022 (UTC)