Talk:Amrit Varsha (अमृत वर्षा)

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Current Understanding

event audio,
OshoWorld
audio,
Osho.com
Shailendra's e-book,
Oshoganga
Dates, places
Amrit Varsha ~ 06 (*1) Agyat Ki Aur #6
missing first 6 words
6. अपने अज्ञान का अस्वीकार (*2) -- 57 min,
missing first 6 words
6. अपने अज्ञान का स्वीकार
missing first 6 words
3 Sep 1967 am, Poona (?)
Amrit Varsha ~ 01 #1 1. सत्य का दर्शन -- 69 min 1. सत्य का दर्शन 3 Sep 1967 pm, Poona
Amrit Varsha ~ 02 #2 2. शून्य का संगीत -- 70 min 2. शून्य का संगीत 4 Sep 1967 am, Poona
Amrit Varsha ~ 03 #4 3. सत्य की भूमि -- 57 min 3. सत्य की भूमि 19 Jun 1965 pm, Ahinsa Hall, Bombay (*3)
Amrit Varsha ~ 04 #5 4. जागरण का आनंद -- 62 min 4. जागरण का आनंद 20 Jun 1965, Sunderban Hall, Bombay
Amrit Varsha ~ 05 #3 5. धर्म की यात्रा -- 49 min 5. धर्म की यात्रा 17 Sep 1967 am, Balasinor (GJ)

Remarks:

(*1) As this event seems to be event mentioned Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction, then it is to have been before ~01 -- ~05, and in the same series, we are pondering of renaming all events, with present ~06 becomes ~01, present ~01 becomes ~02 etcetera. Stay tuned.
(*2) Although Osho.com site gives the title as अपने अज्ञान का अस्वीकार, Apne Agyan Ka Asweekar, the title for their 2010 version of the audio file has it as Apne Agyan Ka Sweekar, - the same as in Shailendra's e-book. (Sweekar = "accept".) Whether "Asweekar" is a mistake or an intended correction remains to be seen. "Asweekar" is basically the negation / opposite of "Sweekar".
(*3) It seems evening talk as Osho said "Today I was lying in the evening , and I had some friends , I told them a story..." And this day (19 Jun) in Timeline is occupied in morning and afternoon.

Deliberations


Amrit Varsha Jagdish, dates.jpg

Source of dates of first 5 events - Jagdish Bharti (image on the right).

Jagdish stated the date 3.9.76 for first event. This is obvious typo (rest dates are 1965-1967, and this date in 1976 is taken by other events). Date of 6th talk is exactly the same as for 5th. It is not possible as Osho says in ch.6 that this is first talk of three in this place and 5th talk is also beginning of series of events (of 4). Ah, yess, "Kandivali Mumbai" mentioned in these two talks on image is wrong at least for 5th talk, which place is clear Balasinor (confirmed by Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction). The 5th fits in first Balasinor series of two days.--DhyanAntar 12:30, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

This book, Varsha, is in some ways a companion volume to Amrit Dwar (अमृत द्वार), both being six-discourse collections of Osho's responses to seekers' questions in Pune and Mumbai. Drawing on that similarity, it may be reasonable to suppose that the talks were given, like Dwar's, in the late 60s, though in this case we have no e-book to validate that. There IS a Varsha e-book among those listed in Osho World's collection, but it is not available.

Varsha demonstrates a curious flip-side compared to Dwar in regard to audio availability. Where Dwar's audiobook version has one less track than the free download versions -- the much more common discrepancy -- Varsha's audiobook version has one more, with the freebie sites offering only five. It is not out of the question that the extra discourse in the six-track audiobook collection is a kind of mistake, but it may also be "just" a Mystery. -- Sarlo (talk) 11:25, 17 June 2014 (PDT)


Most of date missing in Timeline.--DhyanAntar 16:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)


Yes, so it's time to put them IN the Timeline. Observations in square brackets above look reasonable. There is an alternative possibility for #6, which is that it was a separate discourse in the same venue but pm after an am talk. This is also reasonable but there are other indications: two sources have Varsha #6 the same as a talk from other books. Shifting content in Hindi books (source document) has it the same as both Aath Pahar Youn Jhumte (आठ पहर यूं झूमते) #1 and Jeevan Ki Kala (जीवन की कला) #3; and Talk:Agyat Ki Or (अज्ञात की ओर) has it the same as Agyat #6 and JKK #3. So we can leave it out for now. -- doofus-9 01:21, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

On second thought, the Timeline is a bit crowded around Jun 19-20 1965 in Mumbai, and 1965 is not very crowded in general. There are already two talks on the 18th and two more on the 19th from Amrit Ki Disha (अमृत की दिशा). A third on the 19th would not be impossible but i don't feel to strain against what's already there. It too is uncertain, and sourced to Jagdish, but enough of this for today. (There's also another talk on the 20th in Mumbai that two different sources agree is from another series that Jagdish puts in Punjab, though without a date, but that's another story.) -- doofus-9 05:05, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Events 1, 2 and 5 are awaiting of checking with manuscript Reports. They can be those events, which are already in Timeline: "Unknown discourses Balasinor 1967 ~ 01" ~ 02, "Unknown discourses Poona 1967 ~ 01 ~ 03".--DhyanAntar 06:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


Dilip checked relation of these events:

"Checked ch.1 and 2 of Amrit Varsha with data of Reports manuscript excerpted from sheet C-7-8 for the talks at Poona. They are not related. Also we cannot say that the excerpt represents the message of the ch.1 & 2 in different words.
"Also checked ch.5 of Amrit Varsha with Reports manuscript data excerpted from sheet C-13-14 for the talks at Balasinor. They are not related. Also we cannot say that the excerpt represents the message of the ch.5 in different words."

He also noted about the series:

"Disc 1 & 2 seems to well be connected. At the end of 1st Disc Osho says “कैसे इस बंधन से जो हमारा ही निर्मित है छुटकारा हो सकता है, उसकी बात कल सुबह मैं आपसे करूंगा। - How to get freed from this bondage which is our own creation – I will talk about that to you tomorrow morning.” May be Disc 3 also is somewhat connected in continuation. But Disc 4 doesn’t seem to be from same series of continuous talks."

Aha, so 2nd talk of the book was given in the morning. As "हिंसा" and "ईर्ष्या" - words from the manuscript related with talk in evening of 3 Sep (maybe there are more words-matching?) - can be found in chapter 1 too and date of this talk also is known from Jagdish, it is the same (3 Sep), so i am sure that this is "Unknown discourses Poona 1967 ~ 02" of 3 talks in Poona with students in 1967, mentioned in the Reports. Replaced in Timeline. Also replaced 3rd "unknown discourse" by 2nd event of this series.
Yes, talks 3 and 4 are related between each other and not related with first two (different dates).


"Disc 5 & 6 are connected and in fact there should be two more talks to complete one series as Disc 5 to 8. In middle of Disc 5 Osho says:
“इसलिए मैं आज की सुबह इस चर्चा में आपसे यह निवेदन करना चाहूंगा, फिर आने वाली तीन चर्चाओं में आपसे उस पर विस्तार से बात हो सकेगी। मृत्यु की कसौटी ही सबसे बड़ी कसौटी है मनुष्य के समक्ष, जिस पर वह कस कर देख ले कि उसके पास सोना है या मिट्टी। जो चीज मृत्यु की कसौटी पर व्यर्थ हो जाती हो उसे वह जान ले कि वह मिट्टी है, क्योंकि मृत्यु की ताकत केवल मिट्टी पर ही चल सकती है। जीवन पर मृत्यु की कोई ताकत नहीं चल सकती।”
This means:
“Hence in the morning talk I want to appeal to you - again in the three upcoming deliberations I can have detailed talk on that with you – death is the greatest test of all in front of a man on which he can check that whether he has gold or dust. Thing that becomes useless at the test (time) of death – he should know that is the dust – because power of death works only on dust. On life, no power of death can work.” "

So, here is exact time (am) of this 5th event. Although Dilip did not find relation of quote from manuscript Report with text of this event, following clues say that this is first talk in Balasinor in 1967 ("three upcoming deliberations"), date of event 17 Sep am, - first date of Balasinor talks confirmed by the manuscript, and manuscript gives three events in that period in this place. All fit well with 3 talks in Balasinor. Replaced "Unknown discourses Balasinor 1967 ~ 01" by Amrit Varsha ~ 05.

"Another thing to note", continued by Dilip, "is that two stories - 1. Beggar’s bowl remains unfilled even after the king empties his whole treasures and 2. Alexander’s empty hands shown outstretched at the time of his death procession - are repeated in both the Disc 1 & 5."

Maybe because they were repeated after 2 week.

"Similarly story of the caged parrot shouting for freedom but is not only reluctant to come out when help is extended but keeps on holding to the cage very strongly – is repeated in both the Disc 2 & 6.
"So we can say ‘Amrit Varsha (अमृत वर्षा)’ is a composition of two or more series of talks – at random.
"OK if Disc 6 is in 1965 and at Poona it separates it out after Disc 5. So that's very nice. We can take it to other connecting compilation of talks. And so 6 may not form part of Amrit Varsha. 🤔
"And in Disc 5 Osho says to discuss in upcoming three lectures in details.... that means there should be 3 more lectures in continuation at Balasinor. Please think it over." (Dilip)

I think Osho meant these three known talk in Balasinor (from Osho Timeline 1967): 17 Sep 1967 am, 17 Sep 1967 om (afternoon), 18 Sep 1967 am. Other alternative can be evening talk in Sep 17th. Sarlo, what do you think?--DhyanAntar 04:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)


What i think is that i cannot follow all this, especially:
a) where Dilip appears to be saying one thing and you appear to be saying the opposite,
b) why the re-currence (co-incidence) of these Hindi words "हिंसा" and "ईर्ष्या" should be definitive proof of anything,
c) why Osho's words about tomorrow morning mean that the talk when he said these words is also in the morning,
d) and there may be more ...

I am not saying you're wrong, just that i am not so sure as you. After studying this thing last night and today, i am still unclear, so i will just leave it, with a suggestion that:
a) perhaps these soon-to-be-deleted "Unknown discourse at Poona/Balasinor" events were blanked prematurely, and
b) some record of their status should remain somewhere, besides in this Talk page.

-0- doofus-9 19:41, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

About c) : his words about talking in the morning were in 3 Sep pm.--DhyanAntar 02:58, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


Yes, that's how it usually is when he is saying "I will ____ in the morning", but above, in your Aha statement, i thought you were making "his words about talking in the morning" in the am. That's why i was having trouble following. I would not be surprised if i misunderstood, but that's how i read what you wrote. -0- doofus-9 17:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


I see, it was the error. Now "aha-statement" is corrected.--DhyanAntar 03:17, 1 May 2020 (UTC)


Last Dilip observation showed that ch.6 is first talk of new series, second talk of which was in night. And ch.5 is morning talk which is beginning of 3-days series.--DhyanAntar 07:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


"Amrit Varsha is not a series of responses to questions of seekers. Osho does not quote any question being raised in any of the discourses available in above OW site." (Dilip)


Extracts and some analysis from Shailendra's PDF (with help of google translate, you know it is a bit rough):

Chapter 1: night talk. "How can this mind be known ? I will talk to you in this direction only in these two days." (It said during first part of the talk.) "So the first step is very negative, and that is to stop running from ourselves. But first understand that we are running away from ourselves..." "We are also making our own idol. May not be broken even to death, but what difference does it make ? If we only know our idol then that idol is false, we have been made. And if we accepted that idol, I would never know who I really am. One who gets entangled with the statue will never know the soul. Give the statue to break the death of its first, or advance to break a major defeat Napoleon's statue, the man who thinks he gives himself broke the statue and enters, he is a seeker, who own Enters inside by breaking the statue made by hand. How can that be an entry? I will discuss it with you tomorrow morning, today I had only to say that we have set up a false statue about ourselves. We have created a false image , there is a reason , there is some reason, so we have created it. To fill the lack of enlightenment, we have made a false idol and have accepted that I am." "As long as we are locked in our prison, we do not even have the divine within and on the day we break our prison... How can we get rid of this bond that is built by us, I will talk to you tomorrow morning." "You are raising your walls, and you shout that we have to be free. Please, recognize that you are your freedom. And the day you will see that your security has become your bond and prison, your own statue erected in your own security has become our death, it will be a moment's task to break this statue on the same day. This is why you make it. It dissolves on the day you don't make it. It has no strength and power."

Chapter 2: morning talk and this is continuation of ch.1. "So on that side, I have to say these little things to you today, so that those bonds can be seen which are not really there, but still bind us. So that they can see the waters and the cages and prisons in which we have imprisoned our souls ourselves, and we are shouting that freedom is needed... What are those bonds and how can we awaken them? And how the fullness of life, the joy of life, enjoy life, you can experience the truth? I want to talk in this direction of three sources." "The first Formula humans, human mind in the darkness, ignorance..." "So the second sutra is: mind should be constantly thoughtful. Not full of ideas, but full of thoughtfulness." "And a silence, and a silence be present within." (third formula - "Nirvicharna")

Chapter 3: "So the first sutra is for the seeker of peace to adopt ego-zero practice." "The second sutra is: the realization of the imperfection in life." "The third sutra is: vision of non-violence." "And the fourth sutra is the seeker of peace: untouchability."

Chapter 4: "The first sutra is: one who wants to be eligible, he has to earn labor, he has to generate self-respect." "Hence the second fact: unstructured life practices. Not unconsciousness in life, not unconscious behavior of life; We should not sleep in any work, every work should be awakened." "The third element is: Orientation towards Satyam, Shivam, Sundaram in continuous breathing." "The fourth element is: Sleeping, waking and sitting, as I said, remember the truth, Shiva, the beautiful." "These four sutras are for meditation and the fifth is for waiting." And the talks ends by "So from the point of view of practicing four sutras. A source said in terms of role. If life is set on these five sutras, if life is built on these five sutras, then there is no reason why any human being will be deprived of knowing joy, ultimate truth, nectar. Everyone has the right, everyone can get it. But those who do not try for their rights are responsible for their unfortunate themselves, none other."

Chapter 5: first morning talk of 4. "That is why I would like to request you in this discussion this morning, then you will be able to talk to him in detail in the upcoming three discussions." "Often, in the three days of what I will say, many of you will feel like this..." "Here you will try the three days that we're going to go live with the satisfaction, he breaks up, because satisfaction is very false." "I will try in three days to break your false satisfaction. And create a discontent within you." "...Here I will talk to you in this regard in these three days."

Chapter 6 (see Talk:Agyat Ki Or (अज्ञात की ओर) for detailed analysis of it): first talk of a series. In the middle Osho says "There are three discussions here to give me, I will try in three debates that could come binding sense. We are bound to do binding, it could be understood. And we can feel how binding the free, it can be understood." In the end before last story: "I will request this in the end: Human bonds are two in a deep sense - of faith and of imitation. The person who frees himself from these shackles, is stepping towards the truth, he is stepping towards being religious, a religious mind is born within him. Religious mind is not what is going to bow heads in some temples, moves to the head of any scriptures. No, the religious mind is one that does not nourish any kind of restrictions on its consciousness around itself. All loosely such bonds, breaks. And then discovers the door of what is hidden within consciousness." "But a gardener'll make garden first separates out the old plants, weeds gives out, throws out removing roots, rocks and pebbles separates, so be prepared to land, so the new seeds to sow. So in this my first discussion I have tried to break some things, to separate some things so that you become ready for those talks - I call them seeds..." "One last story and I will complete my talk." {The story in short: - A famous blacksmith gets shackled along with other 99 big people of Rome and thrown into the forest by the enemies. The smith finds those shackles were made by himself and it was rather very difficult to get freed from them as there was no weaker link to break open.} While conculding Osho says: "The condition of that smith became such - as is experienced almost same by every person who wakes up and looks at his own shackles. But that smith reached back home in the evening. How he reached home, that I will talk to you in the night."

Similarity is seen in ch.3 and 4, while ch.1 and 2 are related, i.e. belong to one series.--DhyanAntar 12:30, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Chapter 6 seems beginning of series of Poona's talks (ch.1-2): this is first talk of 3-talk series and ch.1 is penultimate talk of the series (source - text); all three chapters are in one series (Amrit Varsha); 2nd talk (ch.1) is night talk and Osho in the end of ch.6 said that he will continue in night; about bonds and chains and their breaking it said in the end of ch.1 and from beginning of ch.2 - it is relation with end of ch.6; 3-talk series (source - text) and Manuscripts ~ Reports Timeline Extraction#C Sheets (C-1 to C-17) gives 3 talks for 3-4 Sep; similarity ch.6 and Manuscripts ~ Reports (3 Sep am talk); place Poona is from Aath Pahar Youn Jhumte OW e-book matches with Reports manuscript (year 1965 from the e-book can be incorrect because creators did not state exact date); many stories in the talk -> talk with students (so "Lions Club" is incorrect as this talk not so serious - to given to students); and last clue which was starting point for this research was 3 Sep Pune - date from Jagdish for one of talks of Agyat Ki Or (अज्ञात की ओर) series (ch.6 of Amrit Varsha is 6th OW audio Agyat Ki Or). Btw, osho.com, Shailendra's PDF and Oshoganga have this ch.6 as part of series of 6 talks, while OshoWorld has this audio in Agyat Ki Aur series.

Only talk with strong relation of blacksmith story for ch.6 is ch.3 of Satya Ki Pyas (सत्य की प्यास), but it cannot be continuation for ch.6 of AV as: 1) this is morning talk while (continuation should be night talk); 2) in this stories said smith was throw to trenches and pits (in ch.6: to forest) and there is no continuation how blacksmith returned to home.--DhyanAntar 16:30, 15 June 2020 (UTC)


I am still struggling with this, trying and failing to find the solid connections which would make the proposed structure for AV a better bet than it appears to be. As it is, it seems not very solid at all but speculative. If the case were solid, i would have no problem in renumbering the events, to underline the significance of your findings, but as it is, the findings are questionable enough in my view. My specific objections and views about the solidity of this case are below.

On "AV#6 as beginning of AV#1": this is a kind of retrofitting that is helpful perhaps in establishing the framework for a case but here, there is no source pointing unambiguously to 3 Sep am as being connected with AV#6.

On "Relation of chains, bonds": This is in some ways the shakiest part of this theory. I have applied GT to the whole of #1 and not found anything that indicates a thematic continuity from #6. Not that i have done this with #6. For that, i am taking your word for the content, ie breaking chains and bonds. There is some talk about breaking statues, ie the self-images we create, but the single mention i could find about bonds came only at the very end, in the part "leading into" #2. Nothing about chains or prisons or anything like that.

I feel that finding some sort of thematic continuity between #6 and #1 is essential in overcoming what i see as the incompleteness of the joining-the-dots of the rest of the theory. Below i will address the perceived incompleteness.

I wrote of joining the dots above. This metaphor refers to an exercise in creating an image by drawing lines (making connections) between dots (infobits). The incompleteness i refer to has to do with "Guess date from Jagdish for AV#6 is 3 Sep". This guess description has drawn a few lines between dots whose relationship is not necessarily meaningful or relevant. Jagdish actually proposed 3 Sep for AKO #4 (Agyat Ki Or). AKO is afflicted with a lot of different chapter number systems and nowhere in the AKO talk page is it made clear that #4 in Jagdish's system is actually #6 in OW's audio system, where their #AKO 6 is actually AV #6.

In some ways, it could be an inspired guess, at least launching this line of speculation which leads to the conclusions you want to draw, and it is at least plausible, but it is not solid. Nor can it be solidified by looking at his text or listening to his audio, because all he supplies are ch #s and dates, including his "erroneous" 30 Jul for his #5. Nor can we just match his #4 with our #6 by subtracting all the other matches, because there are only two matches for his five chapters, his #3 and #5, and that last is erroneous. Jagdish has three leftover dates. Whatever song and dance is employed to eliminate two of those leftover dates and the various candidates for AKO, the process is not solid. And Jagdish's effort in his AKO offering has a lot of misses.

It is tempting, but without that text connection discussed above, i don't feel to try to write up the argument for now. Let it sit a mess until something else comes along that tips the balance toward a better case. G**gle Translate has not been able to illuminate the connection between #6 and #1. Can Dilip find it? My impression from sheets C7-8 in Reports-Manuscripts was that the first and second talks in Pune were not necessarily related. That has to be overcome too. How are they related?.-- doofus-9, 20.06.2020.


I think "30 Jul" is typo as for #3 Jagdish gives 29 Jun.--DhyanAntar 06:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)